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  #1  
Old 07-03-2003, 01:05 PM
chrisconrad chrisconrad is offline
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Power Conditioning...

I work in the consumer electronics field, mainly in consumer audio and home theater systems. We extensively sell and use power conditioning and voltage stabilization devices such as those made by Monster Power, Panamax, PS Audio and Richard Gray's Power Company. Many people swear by these products, and they are extensively covered in many hi-fi and home theater magazines and often recommended. many people note marked improvements in image and sound quality when using these things. Some peopel take it a step further, upgrading their wall outlets also, and upgrading individual power cords on individual components such as amplifiers. I bring this up because I never really heard much said about this on this board and in relation to club sound systems. Also, Scott Fitlin has a thread on the Audio Heritage board regarding voltage irregularities in the new york city power system, which some of these products regualte. I've also sold and seen these used for home studio setups. I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience with them for club use, and whether it would help the system at all. many of the higher priced units are designed to be used with high current amplifiers and I see these used all the time in high end home theater setups with expensive gear.
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  #2  
Old 07-03-2003, 03:02 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Power conditioning

I have tried some of the units and did not like the outcome of what i was hearing with these units in one if my systems. Myself and Scott have spent many hours trying diff power conditioners from diff brands and we did not like the outcome of the clarity & even tried the real expensive home units as well and did not like how the clubs system sounded once gear was plugged into the conditioner by the way YOU CAN HEAR THE CONDITIONERS FLAWS ON A BIG PLAYBACK SYSTEM IF ITS A PROPERLY ENGINEERED SYSTEM.
The system just doesn`t sound together and you can really hear it in the hi-end and low-end when using these conditioners and AC power quality does play a major roll in the quality of your audio playback system.
I do not use these in a club inviorment at all as long as you have everything grounded properly your ok. I use the Furman power strips with power conditioning temporarily if i cant get a strip without power conditioning then i`ll change it to one without conditioning.
www.systemsbyshorty.com
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  #3  
Old 07-03-2003, 06:07 PM
barbara barbara is offline
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conditioning

interesting topic.

i have a furman power conditioning/regulating strip in my home studio, mainly for the protection of my gear as i seem to have had a couple pieces get "fried" due to AC irregularities in this crazy old building i live in.

i'm not sure i understand how a power conditioner could make a club system sound worse, so if anyone could explain that i'd be interested.
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  #4  
Old 07-03-2003, 09:18 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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AC outlets and Power cords

Yeah they got outlets that cost as much as $180 each. Most of what this is about is better metals used to make the contacts and higher than normal contact pressure! I am not sure how worthwhile these are at all! I do know that you can do an Isolated ground and that keeps your ground isolated from everything else. This will work if you have lots of ground noise. These are commonly refered to as " Hospital Grade Outlets " because hospitals require isolated grounds for their sensitive equipment!

Power cords. They come in all sizes and flavors with prices to match. I played with several and each time went back to my original bullshit power cord. IT DOES make a difference, and not one my ears cared for! The REAL DEAL with AC current carrying cords is size. If you have the right size power cord for the amount of amperage your drawing, you got it all! But if you want to foray into AC cords get a dealer to let you try before you buy.
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  #5  
Old 07-03-2003, 09:26 PM
barbara barbara is offline
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ok....

so would it make sense to say that non-regulated lines provide something similar to extra "headroom" for amps, allowing for greater draw as necessary, whereas the regulated AC would almost "limit" the amps (creating the "lean" bass sound) .. or is my ignorance of electrical engineering and the workings of amplifiers really shining through here?

this is the furman conditioner/regulator that i have in my home studio (it's a regulator that also does line conditioning):

http://www.furmansound.com/pro/reg/reg1.htm

i have the amp for my monitors plugged into this, so i am going to try plugging the amp straight into the wall instead and see if i can hear a difference.

thanks for all the info on this, i have always been curious about how this regulator/conditioner might impact my system. the advice about hooking everything but the amp up to it is very helpful.
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  #6  
Old 07-03-2003, 09:33 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Its not

that the system sounds distorted bad or anything like that, it is the characteristic of the sound system that changes & i hear it in the mid hi / hiend and the subbass as well. Engineers might say you can`t hear it but you can at least i can & as far as protection again as long as you are grounded your are ok.

Here`s what I noticed thru the conditioner, the mid hi & hi`s had a more pastee sound with no extension. The Mid Hi`s / Hi`s were alittle lifeless sounding with the power conditioner and the open airy sound the system had was not the same on the mid hi`s / hi`s, it seemed to be striped away but as soon as i go without the power conditioner to a power strip without any kinda conditioning its all there, the system just seemed to gel together properly, I was playing the exact same musical source each time with or without conditioning.

For the bottom end it seemed be a bit thinner sounding kinda stiff sounding that kinda characteristic with everything goin thru the conditioner. Again once everything was plugged into a power strip without conditioning everything had a better tonality and the balance seemed to be right thruout the whole system from the ultra bottom up to very top end.
I did this test atleast 7 times back n forth with or without conditioning So i go without a conditioner because it sounded better to my ears.

Some may disagree,

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  #7  
Old 07-03-2003, 09:56 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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yes

Your right on Barbara. The tight regulation does affect peak power output of your amps.

But regulation isnt the only thing going on. When you plug into the wall theres nothing between the wall and your amp except the power cord. now, you plug a regulator into the wall and your amp into the regulator. your going through more components and transformers. This causes a momentary lag, and insertion loss as well.

Water. lets say you have a garden hose hooked directly to the spigot. You get good water pressure. Now, there might be a little dirt or rust on the water line, so you connect the spigot to a water filter, then connect the hose to the water filter. You got CLEAN water, but with a slight loss of water pressure. This is the same thing that happens electrionically with power conditioners and regulators!
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  #8  
Old 07-04-2003, 02:23 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Power line conditioning and regulation

These units are something you have to try for yourself and decide. Theres way too many power condiotioners available, and each swears to be the ONLY one to have!

Power conditioning and Power regulation are 2 different things and Ill explain both.

Regulation keeps the voltage at a stable 120v regardless of the actual incoming voltage!

Conditioning and filtering removes RF, EMI, and other assorted noise and junk thats present in EVERY electrical system! Most also offer surge, spike and transient voltage protection!

I own Richard Greys power company, I also own an Octave power line conditioner from Quantum. I had the PS Audio AC Regenerator. All DID do something, but to my ears not for the better. It will clean some things up, but the hi,s and mids had a tizzy sound to them. the bass gets a bit leaned out! The problem is that although Filtering will remove harmonics and noise from your AC line they also tend to limit current as well. This is why people recommend that you ONLY plug pre amps amd EQ,s and other front end components into the conditioners and plug your amps straight into the wall!

Different devices operate off different principles. Some use a ferro resonant transformer and capacitors and resistors. The transformer stabilizes the voltage to 120v and the capacitors and resistors act as a low pass filter shunting noise to neutral or ground! other units use inductors to isolate the load and fill in the line sags! This is the principle behing Richard Greys Power Company. PS Audio takes the incoming AC breaks it down to DC, and regenerates a perfect AC 120v sinewave. Tice, Vansevers, Chang lightspeed are also makers of high priced power conditioners.

But, most gear already has RF filters as well as full voltage regulation and transient overvoltage protection. Some audio gear manufacturers, like Bryston, will actually tell you NOT to plug their equipment into these devices as they already have protection and in most cases will degrade, rather than make better.

Now voltage regulation is also a problem that is looked at these days. I myself have had my voltage run as high as 139v line to neutral. In this case a voltage regulators output would only be 120v regardles of input. This can be helpful in problem buildings but will also tend to limit current delivery to your equipment. These devices use a multi tap transformer with auto switching to keep your voltage stable wether you have overvoltage or undervoltage!

Transient overvoltage. This is a condition that occurs everyday allday and all night! Transients are voltage increases that last only a fraction of a second and can be as high as several thousand volts! Most good conditioners will protect against transients! Transients, overvoltage, and undervoltage are products of everyday usage of AC power and sometimes large loads being switched on or off!

More later, I have to go back to work now!

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