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  #26  
Old 11-04-2003, 11:50 PM
jsd540 jsd540 is offline
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I can see where you are comeing from. I know that for most new DJ's the rane is the State of the art, but I have not known anyone who has heard both still hold on to that belief.

I admit the features on the rane can assist with my performance and they allow me to do a few things easier. The crossfader for example is not necessary because if you practice on the Urei / Bozak you'd be amazed how easy it becomes to quick mix on it.

It is however a matter of convenience for me not just sound quality.

If I could raise the cash I would trade it (Rane) in a minute. So would anyone with a decent pair of ears...

BTW what type of beer are we talking about. A bud light may not do much damage but I'm sure a guiness would...
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  #27  
Old 11-05-2003, 12:05 AM
jmark jmark is offline
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This might muddy the waters even further, but what the hell. To me the real point of this thread is to decide with your own ears, not just accept marketing hype.

I absolutely prefer the Urei 2016 for club installations, but for my own home/mobile use (I do maybe 1/2-dozen mobile DJ gigs in a typical year) I bought the Rame MP-2016. For starters, it was *much* less expensive than buying a Urei 1620 in good shape. Also (one thing that hasn't yet been mentioned) for mobile use the Urei is not the best choice because some of the connections (particularly the phono/mic preamp cards) have a tendency to work loose in transit.

Here's something funny...I mixed the Naked Music Nude Dimensions 3 CD (and several others for the label) on the Rane MP-2016 a couple years ago. It was DJ-ed with CD-R's burned from my old 16-bit Pro Tools system, on a Pioneer CMX-5000 dual player. Between the players and the mixer I used the Elektrix EQ/Killers. All interconnections were with the kind of $3 audio cables they sell at Radio Shack. Then it was mixed back into the same 16-bit Pro Tools system, where a bit of editing and all the final mastering was done. Yes, cheap cables, the dreaded MP-2016, *two* generations of 1994-vintage 16-bit A-to-D conversion, oh and in my old apartment where this was mixed the refrigerator was about 2 feet from the DJ setup. About 2/3 of the music was sourced from vinyl records.

Last year, I'm walking past this super high-end audio store in San Francisco...the kind of place that will unflinchingly sell people a $3,000 power cord to plug into their $5,000 power-line conditioner to plug into their $10,000 monoblock power amps. Guess what they're playing through one of their $50,000 audio systems?

I played dumb (at first) and asked them some questions about their choice of listening material, the guy starts going on about how the disc is incredibly revealing of the subtle differences in soundstage between their different systems and so on and so on (I'm not kidding)....I kept thinking of the old saying about sausage tasting great as long as you don't know what went into it. If I ever needed an object lesson on the snake-oil/grape kool-aid that is involved with the high-end home audio business, that was it. I did finally fess up to being the guy who mixed and mastered the CD, even told them about the Radio Shack audio cables. I'd be willing to bet the guy immediately started hearing "deficiencies". To be very honest, I've done much better mastering jobs on other projects, and I've got better gear to do it with now.

At any rate...I don't think the MP-2016 is a terrible product, operated within it's design limits I think it can sound quite decent. It's definitely easier to induce clipping on the Rane, because the gain pots allow much more internal boosting than is possible on a Urei *and* the Rane is lacking the very high-current/transformer output stage found on the Urei. Dropping in a Rane in place of the Urei, there would absolutely need to be some gain adjustment elsewhere in the system to get similar levels out of the speakers.

I personally see the near-ubiquitous usage of digital "crossover/processors" as being a far greater problem in current club sound than whether a Rane mixer is used. Not only do most of the digital crosovers seem to have sub-standard algorithms and A-D/D-A conversion, they usually seem to be set up mostly by instrument...as we all (should) know, "flattening the room" with an RTA is not the be-all/end-all answer to good sound, you need someone with good ears and knowledge of the music to be played through the system. Plus, most of the time (at least here in San Francisco) I hear these things kicking into protective limiting all the time...having a club system set up so that at "normal" operating levels the thing is peak-limiting all the time is just plain wrong (we're not processing goddam FM radio!). Then we have to send a special shout out to the legions of ignorant DJ's who seem to have little clue and less interest about how to operate the gear right in the first place (encouraging the people responsible the maintaining the system to resort to brute-force measures like heavy peak limiting to keep drivers from getting blown).

Okay, that was more of a full-on rant than I had intended, I guess the point is that there is a lot of hocus-pocus in many aspects of the audio industry, and this winds up NOT resulting in net improvement over time. Groupthink and indifference are our two worst enemies in striving for better sound quality.
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  #28  
Old 11-05-2003, 12:42 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Re: Re: Urei, Bozak, Rane

Quote:
Originally posted by drc24
Not to throw more fuel into the fire, but what about younger folks like me who grew up just accepting per-channel EQs as normal? I understand that a good mix can be done without EQs, but for many of the new breed of DJs, the extra EQs are simply a standard feature, like a headphone cue.

Essentially, in your eyes (not asking anyone specific here), does sound quality take precedence over DJ technique, even if the technique is common practice? I understand what Shorty's doing in Stereo, but is it better to have poor sound and a DJ who can do everything he wants, or good sound with a limited DJ?

I know many of you are going to come back with "but if a DJ is good, he doesn't need EQs to mix well," and I understand that, but if my DJ performance is significantly enhanced by my ability to use per-channel EQs, then what happens? What happens if Richie Hawtin, who depends on his modified A&H Xone 64, gets booked at Stereo? His entire performance depends on that mixer and the noisy effects he uses...

One more thing: what is your baseline for "good sound?" I think Mr. Bell may be merely operating under a different standard than the rest of you. If you believe that the Urei and Bozak are the mixers that sound the absolute best, than anything that sounds different, whether it's "good" or not, is not going to be liked by you guys, correct?

What I'm trying to say is that for many people outside of this community, the 2016 is the best mixer out there, it is the standard for quality. For some, that lack of bass isn't a "lack of bass," that's what they think of as high quality sound.

Now that probably has to do with the fact that we never had the chance to listen to a high quality system from back in the day. But is it possible that the 70's and 80's sound that everyone loves here isn't the "best" for some listeners today? Is it possible that some raver, who's used to listening to booming, low quality systems, could walk into Stereo, and not be blown away by the sound, because he's used to something different (even if it's low quality)?

Basically, I'm wondering if all the 2016 hatred has to do with its low-quality construction, or its sonic differences from the Urei and Bozak. I know you may say they're the same thing, but just think that for some people out there, the 2016 is "good sound."


i understand it might be diff way of playing music thru a urei but if you have a mixer that you can do all your tricks and your set sounds less than medioker in a club and you get a so so response because of a medioker sound system and the crowd isnt enjoying what your doin up in the booth and there not getting what your doin and there not responding and you dont get any work because your set was not effective why bother doin tricks if its not even gettin respected by the crowd and nobody will be talkin about you.

But when you play on a huge sound system with all the rt gear in it and you cant do as much tricks and you get more respect because you really rocked it and you sounded like never b4 and you get your next 10 gigs because of your set on the kick ass system you played that nighti think the trade off is beyond worth it.

All these systems in clubs and the ratio is prob 99.9% of the clubs that have all the gear neccassary fot the djs tricks and barely anyone leaves these clubs fullfiled sonically or musically and bareley any talk of the djs. Then you have Stereo when just about everyone leaves fullfiled in everyway and all they do is talk about the dj and the sound system and the club and the dj gets rave reviews how he played on that system then the dj gets his next 10 gigs because of there wicked set in Stereo.

In Stereo there is no gear for trickery only a crossover to use & the jocks love to play on that fanominal sounding system in Stereo because the system takes them to the next level without trickery and there crowd leaves more fullfilled sonically,musically & all this with less trickery and just a fanominal sounding set on a fanominal sound system so the trade off is more than worth it.

As far as pauls comments, he could have answered his question much diff than he did. Paul spoke at us with bullshit specs that he prob got off the rane site & the specs dont always tell the truth but he spoke to us like we are stupid and know nothing about audio, and this is why people made the comments that they did twards him PAUL: IS NOT THE AUTHORITY ON NIGHTCLUB SOUND FAR FROM IT. He could have simply said you gotta listen to the three mixers and decide for yourself and said the 2016 has alot of feature that the other units dont have the rane also has a diff tonality than the other two mixers but you gotta decide if thats the sound you want. Instead he dissed 2 of the greatest mixers completly these mixers were the best built, best designed, and best sounding mixers ever built to date and said they were pretty much junk and they dont sound good.In fact most of the features and pretty much the layout of the Rane is a knockoff of the Urei thou it sounds completly diff and it is a completly diff design but even the model number of the rane is the urei model number reversed. Thou its Pauls opinion and thats fine but there is a way he could have explained himself better.

If Mr bell is operating under a diff standard thats fine but again he needs not to speak at people on this board as if he is superior to any of us cause HE IS NOT & this is how he posts alot of the time as if he is the final answer on this site & HE IS NOT! everyone has opinions on this site and nobody is the final answer. Some guys like myself or scott might recomend something and it might work great for some people, yet others might not agree withwhat we say and not likewhat we recomend, but we are not the final answer on this site either it is a public forum where everyone can express there thoughts and debate and discuss theorys on sound.

As far as the sound in Stereo you would have to go up there and hear it for yourself to decide if it has the tonality that you might like, it might not be your cup of tea but it also very well be a sound that you fall in love with like we all did.

We have mostly all new school jocks that play that room and none of them miss the eq per channel they mix flawless and have no issues with the urei in that room when they hear the sound and watch that crowd get off to there music all the trickery is forgotten

as for the rane being the best for some it very well might be, but elliot asked which has the best fidelity and we expressed what we thought was, which in our opininon is the urei or bozak not the rane.

But if the 2016 is great for most guys and most guys love it then stick with it and enjoy it whatever makes you happy. Hearing sound systems and gear is all a subjective & preference and nobody is wrong because thats what your hearing thats why there are a million speakers and amps and mixers because one guy might like one speaker over the next and so on.
www.systemsbyshorty.com

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 11-05-2003 at 02:02 AM.
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  #29  
Old 11-05-2003, 12:55 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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rane

Quote:
Originally posted by jmark
This might muddy the waters even further, but what the hell. To me the real point of this thread is to decide with your own ears, not just accept marketing hype.

I absolutely prefer the Urei 2016 for club installations, but for my own home/mobile use (I do maybe 1/2-dozen mobile DJ gigs in a typical year) I bought the Rame MP-2016. For starters, it was *much* less expensive than buying a Urei 1620 in good shape. Also (one thing that hasn't yet been mentioned) for mobile use the Urei is not the best choice because some of the connections (particularly the phono/mic preamp cards) have a tendency to work loose in transit.

Here's something funny...I mixed the Naked Music Nude Dimensions 3 CD (and several others for the label) on the Rane MP-2016 a couple years ago. It was DJ-ed with CD-R's burned from my old 16-bit Pro Tools system, on a Pioneer CMX-5000 dual player. Between the players and the mixer I used the Elektrix EQ/Killers. All interconnections were with the kind of $3 audio cables they sell at Radio Shack. Then it was mixed back into the same 16-bit Pro Tools system, where a bit of editing and all the final mastering was done. Yes, cheap cables, the dreaded MP-2016, *two* generations of 1994-vintage 16-bit A-to-D conversion, oh and in my old apartment where this was mixed the refrigerator was about 2 feet from the DJ setup. About 2/3 of the music was sourced from vinyl records.

Last year, I'm walking past this super high-end audio store in San Francisco...the kind of place that will unflinchingly sell people a $3,000 power cord to plug into their $5,000 power-line conditioner to plug into their $10,000 monoblock power amps. Guess what they're playing through one of their $50,000 audio systems?

I played dumb (at first) and asked them some questions about their choice of listening material, the guy starts going on about how the disc is incredibly revealing of the subtle differences in soundstage between their different systems and so on and so on (I'm not kidding)....I kept thinking of the old saying about sausage tasting great as long as you don't know what went into it. If I ever needed an object lesson on the snake-oil/grape kool-aid that is involved with the high-end home audio business, that was it. I did finally fess up to being the guy who mixed and mastered the CD, even told them about the Radio Shack audio cables. I'd be willing to bet the guy immediately started hearing "deficiencies". To be very honest, I've done much better mastering jobs on other projects, and I've got better gear to do it with now.

At any rate...I don't think the MP-2016 is a terrible product, operated within it's design limits I think it can sound quite decent. It's definitely easier to induce clipping on the Rane, because the gain pots allow much more internal boosting than is possible on a Urei *and* the Rane is lacking the very high-current/transformer output stage found on the Urei. Dropping in a Rane in place of the Urei, there would absolutely need to be some gain adjustment elsewhere in the system to get similar levels out of the speakers.

I personally see the near-ubiquitous usage of digital "crossover/processors" as being a far greater problem in current club sound than whether a Rane mixer is used. Not only do most of the digital crosovers seem to have sub-standard algorithms and A-D/D-A conversion, they usually seem to be set up mostly by instrument...as we all (should) know, "flattening the room" with an RTA is not the be-all/end-all answer to good sound, you need someone with good ears and knowledge of the music to be played through the system. Plus, most of the time (at least here in San Francisco) I hear these things kicking into protective limiting all the time...having a club system set up so that at "normal" operating levels the thing is peak-limiting all the time is just plain wrong (we're not processing goddam FM radio!). Then we have to send a special shout out to the legions of ignorant DJ's who seem to have little clue and less interest about how to operate the gear right in the first place (encouraging the people responsible the maintaining the system to resort to brute-force measures like heavy peak limiting to keep drivers from getting blown).

Okay, that was more of a full-on rant than I had intended, I guess the point is that there is a lot of hocus-pocus in many aspects of the audio industry, and this winds up NOT resulting in net improvement over time. Groupthink and indifference are our two worst enemies in striving for better sound quality.


The rane on a small system or in a house it can work out great but when you install it on a huge system it can show all the flaws in the design of the unit, just like the pioneer piece, on a small system its great but install it on a huge system and thats another story.

Thats great what he had to say about your album but the source material and the mastering must have been mixed and mastered really well to sound great on a hifi system mastering can really do magic in a album or a single with a great mastering engineer with a great mastering studio
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  #30  
Old 11-05-2003, 01:21 PM
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daveg daveg is offline
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Quote:
Last year, I'm walking past this super high-end audio store in San Francisco...the kind of place that will unflinchingly sell people a $3,000 power cord to plug into their $5,000 power-line conditioner to plug into their $10,000 monoblock power amps. Guess what they're playing through one of their $50,000 audio systems?


Very funny

I'm off to plug my Rane in poweramp for home use just to make sure I wasn't hearing things last time.
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  #31  
Old 11-05-2003, 02:17 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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those 3 dolla cables and high end

I own a few snake charmer cables, a few yearsa ago I just HAD to find out what I was missing!

You know WHAT I found out? 3 dolla radio shack cables actually sound better than most snake oils and associated products.

One thing I consistently noticed with ALL my " ESOTERIC " cables, be it Kimber, straight wire, MIT, or Cardas, was a slight gain drop! Each made specifically for audio cable I have tried I lose a tiny bit, and its noticable!

Some cables make the highs sound quite edgy too! They call this Hearing more information, I call it Bad sounding!

I make my own cables from West penn wire and switchcraft and neutrik connectors.
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  #32  
Old 11-05-2003, 03:20 PM
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daveg daveg is offline
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rane

No,this sounds poor in comparason to accuphase hi fi preamp.

How hard can it be to mix three sources together using three volume pots and a master output
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  #33  
Old 11-07-2003, 06:49 PM
Nate Nate is offline
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What is this, Bash Paul Thread?

Hey, the original poster asked for an opinion. You all gave your opinions, then Paul gave his opinion, and you all TOLD him his OPINION was wrong???

Sort of pious if you ask me.

Elliot, go check out all 3 mixers, see which you like best. Make sure they are all hooked up to the exact same sound system. Then buy what you like.

EVERYONE's opinion here is BIASED towards what they use. Paul uses Rane, Scott and Shorty use UREI. So of course each one is going to defend what they use, its human nature.

Would you buy a brand new Honda without test driving it just because everyone else is buying Hondas? No way! So go give it all a listen, then you too will have an opinion to share.

Who are we to say your opinion is wrong, just like who are we to say Paul is wrong.

-Nate Bishop
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  #34  
Old 11-07-2003, 08:01 PM
marcellrivera marcellrivera is offline
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Paul bash

Nate - good point
Elliott - go get a urei or a bozak!
This is my opinion.
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  #35  
Old 11-07-2003, 09:30 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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And after you get your Rane

Your right Nate, it is up to him! But he asked US what we think is the best! WE told him.

Everyone that bought a Rane is looking to or has gotten rid of them!

On all the other boards the people cant believe how good a urei or Bozak sounds after they get one.

WHY?

Its fairly unanimous! The Ureis and Bozaks have the nicest sound.

I, for one, did tell Elliot to use his ears, and listen to all three mixers and see what he likes!

If you ask me for MY opinion, then be prepared to recieve MY answer.

And NO, it wasnt a BASH Paul thread. But he always comes on this board like HE is the last word on sound. And everyone else just told him their opinion, as he told Elliot his!

Also, very cute how you show up out of nowhere, praising Digital system controllers and rane mixers. Kind of too coincidental after Paul getting trounced and not being around! Know what I mean?

You dont have to agree with me, and I dont have to agree with you, but you MUST respect EVERYONES right to say it how they hear it. Evidentally, no one was hearing it the same way Paul hears it, and they said so.

Mr. Bell can use Rane mixers and DSP controllers in his systems, its his perogative. But I dont think digital audio is quite ready yet, even at this late stage of the game.

My opinion of the Rane mixer stands as I said it. Awful sounding piece. And thats MY opinion.
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  #36  
Old 11-07-2003, 09:55 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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DaveG has a Rane

And he used it! Till he got a urei. Then he put the Rane away. he prefers the Urei. But he also has a Rane.

Scott and Shorty are not the only ones who prefer its sound.

I really want to know what club you own Nate! i want to come hear it. Who did your system?
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  #37  
Old 11-08-2003, 12:24 AM
Nate Nate is offline
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Clarification

I am in no way affiliated with Paul. I have never even conversed with him online or offline.

I have read his posts on the live audio board, where I frequent. One of his posts in response to a DJ was to checkout this message board as a good source of information and a place to ask his questions. I simply followed the link a good number of months ago. I simply have not posted until now.

Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps Paul has blatantly lashed out at your opinion in previous posts. If you would be so kind as to show me these threads, I would be inclined to not see you as lashing out at him in this thread. However, viewing this one thread independently of any other communication, Paul's opinion does not seem to be blatantly abusing the Bozak and UREI mixers, simply stating he believes the Rane to be superior. I could be reading the post in the wrong light, or you could be reading it in the wrong light.

I will agree, Paul has not defended his post and stated his intentions or underlying meaning. Either way, I feel the response he was given was very harsh.

Take care,

-Nate Bishop


oh and see my other thread on analog vs. digital for the response about me owning a club
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  #38  
Old 11-08-2003, 12:40 AM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Thank you, for your opinions.

I really didn’t post this question to start a war, just to hear which mixer you felt offered a High Fidelity
Sound.

The reason I asked this question is due to my experience using a Rane mixer. Most of the DJ’s I know praised Rane mixers over any other mixer in the Market. Since I started off using Gemini mixers, (Due to not being born with a golden spoon in my mouth) I pretty much know how Gemini sounds. So, when I finally saved up some money to purchase a Rane mixer, I A/B’d the two to find out how much better the
Rane was supposed to sound. Well, the Rane offered excellent Highs, and, clear Midrange. However, I lost my Low Mids, and, Bassline. Of course, I could’ve tweaked the Parametric, and, regain those lost frequencies. But, I was playing both mixers flat, (In which I use all my DJ mixers) and, was astonished to hear such a big difference between the two. I even pulled out this old Lafayette mixer, I got free a few years ago, and, the Gemini, and, Lafayette sounded very similar, where as the Rane, wasn’t to my liking. I’m in
No Way saying that Gemini sounds, better than Rane. But, I really don't feel its worth having a highly reputable mixer on your rig if its not giving you the sound you need.

I had the opportunity, to use a Urei when I was in my teens, but, learning to mix on rotary knobs, kept me occupied. So, the last thing I was thinking about was the Quality.

Now, I agree with many of you that stated listen to all three, then decide. Unfortunately, its not that easy.
When I test audio gear, it needs to be used in the same environment, using the same equipment, and, feeding it the same program.

So, the only way to do this is;

1. Buy a Urei, Bozak, and use my existing Rane, to conduct such a test.
2. Ask someone on the board, that wanted to know the answer to the question I posted. In which, they conducted such a test.

Well, the first choice is out of the question, for I don’t have the luxury ($$$) to perform such at test.
(School offers the best alternative in keeping your pockets empty )


As for Paul Bell’s opinion.

He did state that the Urei, and Bozak offered a “Warm Analogue” sound. Which means more Hi Fidelity in my books.

Thanks Again For Everyones Opinion.

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Last edited by Elliot Thompson : 11-08-2003 at 12:48 AM.
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  #39  
Old 11-08-2003, 12:50 AM
jmark jmark is offline
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Re: And after you get your Rane

Quote:
Originally posted by clubman5

Everyone that bought a Rane is looking to or has gotten rid of them!

Actually for my home use, I own a Rane and do *not* have any plans to get rid of it. Among other reasons, because for the occasional mobile DJ gigs I do, a Urei would be less than ideal because the internal connections have a tendency to come loose in transit.

I also think it's a bit extreme to say the Rane "sounds terrible"...now the Pioneer DJM-500/600, *that* is a truly terrible-sounding mixer with serious internal gain-structure/internal headroom problems. Some of the Vestax and Gemini mixers with really badly-designed EQ's that are always in-line sound quite awful. Many inexpensive mixers that might "spec" decently when new have a tendency to sound bad after a short time as parts degrade.

I think the Rane, when operated within headroom/output limitations, can sound quite good. The problems mainly arise when people are ignorant of the proper use of the input gains, and crank them all the way up with "hot" sources. I am also not fond of the Rane's EQ's, and for that reason use the basic MP-2016 with external EQ's. And as someone else mentioned, having the combination of channel and output EQ's is potentially harardous...DJ's that aren't thinking clearly have a ridiculous amount of potential boost available from the two EQ sections.

The tone controls on the Urei's are fairly non-usable, and after doing the modification myself and hearing a noticeable improvement in sound from it, I think anyone with a Urei 1620 would be well-advised to do the factory-authorised mod and defeat the tone controls. As this moodification is both easy and widely known, it's hardly a legitimate point to "bash" the Urei on as someone earlier in this thread did.
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  #40  
Old 11-08-2003, 02:50 AM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Friends,

Finally a few hours off!!

Sorry if I’ve seemed absent from this thread-I’ve been crushed with work. I’ve received several emails concerning this topic. Apparently, more people lurk here than post. Here’s a few quotes, some names were named, I choose to not reveal them:

"...one thing to note: that particular forum (wave)is mostly frequented by urei and bozak freaks....not that we shouldn't pay some attention to their criticisms, but these are folks who think that the 1967 Beetle was a well-engineered product, i.e, their affection for old-tech seems to override any objective consideration of the advantages of newer stuff. I think it's fair to say that we're never going to please that crowd. Here are some other DJ forums where things are little different:

http://www.futureproducers.com/forum...lay/forumid/25

http://www.naughtybooth.com/board/

http://forums.undergroundhiphop.com/ ..."


“...you should know better than posting on wave, it’s mostly XXXXXX’s friends anyway and they’ll always stick up for him even when he’s wrong which he usually is...”

“...I hate the Rane 2016 because I had an evening ruined because the stupid telephone plug power plug thing was screwed up...the Urei has a cord so it’s better...”

Although the Urei mixer was great in it’s day up to the cease of production, it’s creators had simply set out to make a DJ board-hardly a priority when they were making broadcast consoles, studio gear and such. DJ’s weren’t looked upon as serious professionals. Of course, today we see DJ’s as integral components in international touring bands. Much has changed. It’s my belief that a (DJ based club) sound system should faithfully reproduce the recorded material, whether it be vinyl, CD, DAT or what have you, the way it was mixed down in the studio, approved for release by the artist and recorded as such. It’s against the principles of a good sound engineer to knowingly use a component that changes the original signal or adds unacceptable levels of distortion to it. Granted, some of you guys may like the sound of the Urei, however that’s your prerogative. After so many years of it, perhaps you think it’s “correct”. Live concerts, broadway shows, television and radio broadcasts are of such high quality today that many people in the audience know better. Look at the abundance of high quality home theaters and pounding car stereos. People today can tell the difference between clean and distorted. As far as sound quality and throughput gain structure with the Rane 2016, I and many others have no problems whatsoever getting the thing to work and work well. Elliot’s findings that the Urei console has more low frequency output is an indication of it’s response curve. While at the August subwoofer shootout, the Crown amplifier (of which Elliot was kind enough to drag along) appeared to give us more lower frequency extension but it lacked the speed, punch, control-whatever it can be interpreted as- compared to the QSC unit. This type of side by side listening is how to do it, as he said here.

There’s rumor that one or more original Urei engineers from back in the day are toying with a modern release of the 1620. I’ll bet it’ll be ruler flat with damm low distortion. Cleaner than the Rane! It will not have the frequency curve of the original so many of you who love the “sound” of the 1620 will be disappointed. Don’t know if they’re running 500 or 5,000 pieces. Don’t know if even one will make it out.

Yes the Rane 2016 has a few short comings feature wise. I wish when connected to the XP that the main board tone controls are bypassed. I fix that by pulling the knobs and gaffing them up good. There’s a modification that can be done that permanently makes them cut only IOW, normally they stay at max. The mic inputs overload waaay too easily. There should be a master L/R balance control as an additional "tool" for the DJ.

As far as certain comments in this thread by a certain person, I was asked by a very knowledgeable person active in this forum to maintain a “hands off” stance. Although he and I have some differing opinions, I have and will continue to respect his request and stay back. I operate a highly respectable professional audio company with a crew of very talented and experienced individuals. I have stood behind $600K of consoles and $1,000K worth of concert sound system in Madison Square Garden. I've provided 100KW systems for DJ use for one night events. I think I'm somewhat qualified to know good from not so good. It would be a grand day if Midas made a DJ console but it would probably be 10 grand. I currently have more than a few installations underway in new locations in NYC. My clients are more than satisfied and actively recommend my services. 75% of my work comes from the DJ’s that work in the various clubs I service. On Tuesday of this week alone, I received bookings for 7 holiday parties.

Bashing? Sorry to say, if a person posts an opinion here that isn't quite what others agree with, they get bashed. This is why most real professional sound guys don't bother posting. They consider this a site of mostly "advanced amateurs". Pity-this site could use an occasional injection from some skilled, experienced guys willing to share their knowledge and experience with the younger guys.

I’ll respect opinions on how the Urei Music Mixer sounds. Respect the opinions of those who wish a cleaner, more accurate sound.

Best to all.

Paul Bell

Last edited by pbellsound : 11-08-2003 at 08:28 AM.
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  #41  
Old 11-08-2003, 06:13 AM
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taisei taisei is offline
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BOZAK

i think
it depends on what kind of music you play.
i play many 70s disco music so i use Bozak.
but if you play only "computer music"
Rane is enough.
today's music already have fat Kick sound

i love philly disco with bozak very much
like mixes of Walter Gibons, Larry Levan and Tom Molton

taisei

http://www.voiceonthetrax.com
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  #42  
Old 11-08-2003, 09:39 AM
drc24 drc24 is offline
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Paul, I respect your opinion, as I know much less about professional audio than you do, but by starting your response with quotes that put down the whole wave music community, you're no better than the people who disrespected you in the first place...

why start the post with "Friends," when your intial comments (whether taken from other people or not) were inflammatory?
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  #43  
Old 11-08-2003, 11:49 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Paul

These are NOT my freinds who will stick up for me when Im wrong, even though you feel I always am!

Its EXACTLY that you feel ONLY YOU know about, or are THE word on audio that riles people up.

Quite frankly I dont care what you use in your sound systems. I know what I like and I use it.

Audio is a subjective preference, and there are many who feel certain things sound better than many of todays perfect measuring, but lacks something gear.

Have a nice day.
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  #44  
Old 11-08-2003, 02:36 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Mr. Paul Bell

I will tell you something that goes beyond this forum and audio. Its not what you say, as much as the way you say it that irks people. I gave out my advice on what I think sounds good, and how to do it for free. Its been said by many that I am doing nothing more than telling people HOW TO do sound. And I was also told by the same people they are in buisiness to SELL sound, not tell people how to do sound.

I am an avid sound hobbyist who is fortunate enough to have a buisiness that earns money with music and sound. I listened to many people over the years, and bought many things, hooked them up with technical assistance from the manufacturers themselves, and became increasingly frustrated when I got NEW technologies to work right, but no matter what they didnt sounds as good as other things. I studied why certain things work and sound the way they do. I have even gotten audio companies to admit analog is better, but this is what they have so this is what they sell, now!


People asked " How do we get our stuff to sound like yours? " so I answered!

We, audio industry and consumers, have known for years the measurements dont always tell the whole story.

You are always there to try an belittle me, regardless of what everyone else may say to you. We tried to want to hear you, but you always insist on making statements like " Good for the period issued " and " much higher distortion " rather than saying " I recommend, because its available, sounds good, and is clean ". You always try to make your point by putting someone elses down, usually mine!

well, I have many other things to be doing. Although I must admit I do love talking audio, I just cant be bothered with this shit anymore! So, Im turning the reigns over to you! I have no doubt you can help people achieve the tonality you have achieved at places like Lotus!

I run my system according to my beliefs, my accumulated knowledge, and my ears! Many agree my place sounds good.

it always comes down to tit for tat between you and I. I sometimes think you get the idea that because you SELL sound for a living no one else has a right to oppose your opinions, but you always oppose everyone elses.

Do you, like some others in the buisiness, feel that IF I werent saying what I do, people never would have realized how bad some of todays installs really sound?

You do in fact have your right your opinions, I only wish you could have respected others.

We will see what you do. BUT, what are you going to tell someone AFTER they spend their hard earned money on something you recommend and they just dont like it, for whatever reason? This is EXACTLY what had happened at AST,which you did work for, they just sold whatever, they didnt care about the complaints, and eventually they lost their biggest line, and their customer base as well. They chose to sell the store, which became an even greater disaster, and it folded.

Again, I have no doubts that if people follow your advice, they can and will achieve what you do at places like Lotus, Webster Hall, and Madison Sq Garden!

PBell your at the controls now, handle it well. And Im outta here.

Sincerely, ScottyJ
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Last edited by clubman5 : 11-08-2003 at 04:26 PM.
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  #45  
Old 11-08-2003, 05:50 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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Hey DRC, I did not pen the comments I chose to include in my posting. I chose to quote what was commented to me off board. Perhaps these guys don’t want to be raked over the coals for their opinions.

I started with “friends” because I have many friends in this industry. Even companies I am in direct competition with are my friends. People that know me will tell you the same. Elliot, was this not true during the subwoofer shootout? Thus far, there are two persons in this business that I do not consider friends of mine. One of which I used to work for and still owes me several thousand dollars.

My friend Scott, probably the oldest and wisest voice here. None of this has been personally directed at you. You and I have some varying ideals and how we achieve them but ultimately the goal is the same. No, I do not always say you’re wrong about things, perhaps you’re reading something into this all that’s not here. On several occasion on this forum, I have agreed with you. I do not try to belittle you or anyone else, I do rely on hard facts. If I say “this widget has XX% distortion”, it’s probably been tested and documented. I don’t say these things because you say it’s clean and I just want to counter you at every turn. I was more disappointed that you didn’t attend the subwoofer shootout than I let on, you and I probably have much to talk about, people, gear and experiences over the years, yadayada. Who named the Bertha? Just where did Richard get most of the bullets for Paradise Garage?

PB

Last edited by pbellsound : 11-08-2003 at 11:45 PM.
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  #46  
Old 11-17-2003, 10:54 PM
Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pbellsound

I started with “friends” because I have many friends in this industry. Even companies I am in direct competition with are my friends. People that know me will tell you the same. Elliot, was this not true during the subwoofer shootout?


PB



Yes. I must agree.

Guys, I think we tend to forget message boards, are
opinion boards. Personal experience that is shared,
and, discussed.

One thing I've always liked about the sound business,
is the respect we have among one another, and, our
kindness to help a fellow soundman, when in time of
need.

Lets not turn this subject to an all out war among one
another.

Please.

Thank you.
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Last edited by Elliot Thompson : 11-17-2003 at 10:57 PM.
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  #47  
Old 11-20-2003, 03:10 PM
johnpuga1982 johnpuga1982 is offline
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Well, i'm not from New York and where i'm from all the sound systems suck. My Urei is pretty much original, as far as I know. From my experinces, I can tell you this, a Urei can make a bad system sound good.

With my experince, I can't say that with the Rane. It lacks in the bottom end, to me the med range tones are weak.

I'm not a sound guy and I can hear the big differnce between Rane and Urei.

On another note:
Esteban Rockett from NYC, thanks for showing me the light when it comes to Urei and Rane.
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Last edited by johnpuga1982 : 11-20-2003 at 04:14 PM.
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  #48  
Old 11-20-2003, 03:29 PM
jensx jensx is offline
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don´t know if this does anything to the discussion, but these mod´s are cool
http://www.meta-design.jp/modify_9.html

the rane can be modified a lot, to achieve better sound - so it seems looking at those pics

btw: did you see the custom 2x4 way with built in phono preamp?
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  #49  
Old 12-03-2003, 05:52 AM
loopylemon loopylemon is offline
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Re: Re: RLA

Quote:
Originally posted by jmark
The Elektrix EQ/Killers definitely sound better than the Vestax units, the problems are 1) finding them, since they've been discontinued for a couple years, and 2) finding a rev. 2 unit, since the earlier units had a problem with developing oscillation.


Do you have any more info on the rev 2 units and how to identify them. I have never heard there is a problem and just wondered if my two have it, what does it sound like and what is required to make them do it?
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  #50  
Old 12-07-2003, 11:39 PM
shihp001 shihp001 is offline
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Bozak for club use?

After seeing most of the posts here, I do know that Bozak mixer is the king of mixer, then second comes to Urei 1260. My question is that can Bozak use in a club enviorment? Why I don't see it anywhere? Thanks.
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