Wave Music Home
ReleasesCommunityYour OrderWave Music
ArtistsEventsDJ MixesShop

Wave Music Home


Home
About Us
Labels
Distributed Labels
Links




Search


Adv. Search



Subscribe


Email






Go Back   Wave Music Community Board > Tech Talk for Gearheads

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-30-2003, 04:47 AM
shihp001 shihp001 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 252
Analog vs. digital

First of all, I would like to say that I learned the most about how important sound quality is from this website more than any source. I am planning to open a club, and I went to one the best local sound companies a few days ago to see what they got. Of course, they sugguested me to go with the digital system. In short, the impression I got was that although analog sound system sounds better than digital system, but the cost of getting a decent analog system cost way more than a digital system. What's everyone's thought!?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-30-2003, 06:06 AM
jmark jmark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: SF
Posts: 283
I don't know how big your club is, but in smaller places (where you don't need anything particularly complicated like time-delays or more than a three-band crossover) you can definitely put together a decent analog system for a reasonable price.

In a bigger place with a complicated crossover configuration and large numbers of speakers, it would probably be easier and cheaper to use a digital system, and installers like them because the settings can be easily stored/repeated/locked-out. There are very few large clubs anywhere that would be willing to foot the bill for the kinds of ongoing tweaks/upgrades/on-site maintenance that we read about regularly here from Stereo in Montreal.
__________________
-mark

http://www.markandrus.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-30-2003, 06:17 AM
shihp001 shihp001 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 252
Quote:
Originally posted by jmark
I don't know how big your club is, but in smaller places (where you don't need anything particularly complicated like time-delays or more than a three-band crossover) you can definitely put together a decent analog system for a reasonable price.

In a bigger place with a complicated crossover configuration and large numbers of speakers, it would probably be easier and cheaper to use a digital system, and installers like them because the settings can be easily stored/repeated/locked-out. There are very few large clubs anywhere that would be willing to foot the bill for the kinds of ongoing tweaks/upgrades/on-site maintenance that we read about regularly here from Stereo in Montreal.


But how do you determine small place and bigger place? I have total of 8500sq.ft, and I would like to devide into 2 rooms in 60:40 ratio, menaing a room of 3400 sq.ft and a room of 5100 sq.ft. Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-30-2003, 09:45 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,421
Where is

your space located. You can do a great quality analog system for any budget that you would like to be in. This myth of analog being more expensive than digital is just untrue. If you are looking for a high quality kick ass system for your space email me and we can talk about putting a high quality analog system in you space.

The fact is that if you really wanna be truely satisfied with your audio system and do it rt the first time out analog will always function and sound better than a digital system.

With analog processing you will have a processor that is extreamly stable at all times espesially during electricle storms & you dont have to worry about your processors forgeting settings or getting desturbed from electrical power problems like digital processors are known to be finicky about.

I know a club that is in Long island that has a sound web that has crashed completlty a few times and when these digital unit crash guess what you have no audio, you will never have these type of issues happen to your club with any kind of analog processing, one might sound better than the other but you will not have any situations like this happen.

For instince during the electricle power blackout situation that everyone blacked out back in the summer that effected the states and some of canada, when the power finnaly came back on some engineers that i know had to go in and reprogram there drive units because they got effected from this issue while some of the rooms i did that have basic analog processing worked flawless, the power came back on and they opened back up with flawless audio ( I got no phone calls about any problems from that blackout)while some of these digital systems did not operate so well after that blackout and guess what the client ends up paying for the service call to fix this problem of these units when they go down.

At Twilo we had issues with our drive unit sometimes it would forget its programs .

With Stereo, i was told what would i need with no expense to spare to elevate that system to the next / unreachable level with money no object and i expained TAD drivers with some of my custom boxes, Bryston amps and Bryston custom analog processors SBS modified and they agreeed and they gave me everything i needed with money no object to achieve just that the best sounding system and I did create just that. Digital can just never sound as good as analog if you want the best sound quality you need to build it analog and it can be done in your budget.

But if you wanna go hear the finest system in the world you need to take a trip to Stereo in Montreal to hear that system, I can do smaller systems like that system that will have that or a very similar sonic character if you like using the same type of gear or i can design a excellant sounding system in your budget, email me at soundmanshorty@hotmail.com
www.systemsbyshorty.com

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 10-30-2003 at 10:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-30-2003, 09:49 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,421
Quote:
Originally posted by jmark

In a bigger place with a complicated crossover configuration and large numbers of speakers, it would probably be easier and cheaper to use a digital system, and installers like them because the settings can be easily stored/repeated/locked-out. There are very few large clubs anywhere that would be willing to foot the bill for the kinds of ongoing tweaks/upgrades/on-site maintenance that we read about regularly here from Stereo in Montreal.


I know 2 big clubs in NYC this past year or so that have spent between 2 & 500,000.00 for these huge digital rigs and there not satisfied with them. A system like Stereo can easily be achieved to be recreated with those type of budgets.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-30-2003, 06:16 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,945
What is big?

Quote:
Originally posted by shihp001
But how do you determine small place and bigger place? I have total of 8500sq.ft, and I would like to devide into 2 rooms in 60:40 ratio, menaing a room of 3400 sq.ft and a room of 5100 sq.ft. Thank you.
My room is 90ft by 50ft and I have no delays, and dont need them!

Doing a digital system is about having 1 processor that does it all! But it doesnt do all things as well as dedicated EQ,s and crossovers do! Sonically speaking!

YOU CAN MOST DEFINITELY put together an analog rig for the same money as a digital one!

Speakers, and there are many, are one of, if not the single most important factor in determining the sound of your system! Now lets say you use EAW Avalon speakers, which incidentally, can be used with analog processing, they cost the same whether they see a signal from a DSP controller or Bryston crosovers!

1 BSS 366 24 bit mini drive will run you close to $4000! 2 Bryston 10B active crossovers will run you about $3000! And throw in a BSS 966 Opal; EQ for just under $1000 and processing costs basically the same for either digital or analog! Hello how do you do!

Another extremely important factor in determining the sonic outcome of your club, is engineering! If said system is engineered for the specific room its in, it will be good sounding with analog processing! If system is a general purpose system to fit the needs of most rooms, but not specifically designed for your room, thats where you run into problems! Example: Avalon systems, DSP processing, digital controller mates system to any room with time delay, phase alignment, parametric EQ, limiting etc! Why isnt there ONE Avalon system everybody is raving about, consistently? On the other hand, Stereo which has neared the end of its upgrades, is consistently raved about by its patrons as amazing! Even before Shorty took over the system, it was considered the best of all clubs! And what was the one thing the old Stereo has in common with the NEW Stereo? Analog! Both Angel Moraes and Shorty kept the system in the analog domain!

Most rooms are decent! A few can be problematic, such as long reverb time, or very echoey! But most rooms that have severe acoustic problems are rooms that were built as old theatres designed to be very reverberant, and carry the sound all the way to the back of the room. Most rectangular or square shaped rooms really arent bad acoustically. They may not be as close to perfect as a recording studio specifically designed to be perfect, but they really arent bad!

Alot of what you hear in clubs today is in fact the systems, and either too many or too little speaker coverage for the room. or the WRONG speakers for the particular room! Overpowering is also another of todays problems! Nobodys seems to be able to have enough power these days! Lets say you have a medium size space, do you really need 50,000 watts of audio? Or lets look at the JBL Vertec system, predominantly designed for long throw, extremely high output applications like that of madison Sq Garden or the Meadowlands! On a dancefloor that is 50 x 40 are you really going to need a concert/arena box with a 200ft throw? Now you put the Vertec system into your club, and you really DO need the DSP controller so you can use the delays to slow your sound down by 175 feet! You wouldnt have had this problem with the right speakers for your room and application, had you chose to have your system engineered for your room, specifically!

Digital controllers have come a long way sonically from just a few years ago, but still have miles of improvement ahead of them before they are truly ready for serious playback applications! In my honest opinion, it just really isnt ready yet!
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin

Last edited by clubman5 : 10-30-2003 at 06:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-05-2003, 06:58 AM
shihp001 shihp001 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 252
Re: What is big?

Quote:
Originally posted by clubman5
My room is 90ft by 50ft and I have no delays, and dont need them!

Doing a digital system is about having 1 processor that does it all! But it doesnt do all things as well as dedicated EQ,s and crossovers do! Sonically speaking!

YOU CAN MOST DEFINITELY put together an analog rig for the same money as a digital one!

Speakers, and there are many, are one of, if not the single most important factor in determining the sound of your system! Now lets say you use EAW Avalon speakers, which incidentally, can be used with analog processing, they cost the same whether they see a signal from a DSP controller or Bryston crosovers!

1 BSS 366 24 bit mini drive will run you close to $4000! 2 Bryston 10B active crossovers will run you about $3000! And throw in a BSS 966 Opal; EQ for just under $1000 and processing costs basically the same for either digital or analog! Hello how do you do!

Another extremely important factor in determining the sonic outcome of your club, is engineering! If said system is engineered for the specific room its in, it will be good sounding with analog processing! If system is a general purpose system to fit the needs of most rooms, but not specifically designed for your room, thats where you run into problems! Example: Avalon systems, DSP processing, digital controller mates system to any room with time delay, phase alignment, parametric EQ, limiting etc! Why isnt there ONE Avalon system everybody is raving about, consistently? On the other hand, Stereo which has neared the end of its upgrades, is consistently raved about by its patrons as amazing! Even before Shorty took over the system, it was considered the best of all clubs! And what was the one thing the old Stereo has in common with the NEW Stereo? Analog! Both Angel Moraes and Shorty kept the system in the analog domain!

Most rooms are decent! A few can be problematic, such as long reverb time, or very echoey! But most rooms that have severe acoustic problems are rooms that were built as old theatres designed to be very reverberant, and carry the sound all the way to the back of the room. Most rectangular or square shaped rooms really arent bad acoustically. They may not be as close to perfect as a recording studio specifically designed to be perfect, but they really arent bad!

Alot of what you hear in clubs today is in fact the systems, and either too many or too little speaker coverage for the room. or the WRONG speakers for the particular room! Overpowering is also another of todays problems! Nobodys seems to be able to have enough power these days! Lets say you have a medium size space, do you really need 50,000 watts of audio? Or lets look at the JBL Vertec system, predominantly designed for long throw, extremely high output applications like that of madison Sq Garden or the Meadowlands! On a dancefloor that is 50 x 40 are you really going to need a concert/arena box with a 200ft throw? Now you put the Vertec system into your club, and you really DO need the DSP controller so you can use the delays to slow your sound down by 175 feet! You wouldnt have had this problem with the right speakers for your room and application, had you chose to have your system engineered for your room, specifically!

Digital controllers have come a long way sonically from just a few years ago, but still have miles of improvement ahead of them before they are truly ready for serious playback applications! In my honest opinion, it just really isnt ready yet!


Is it ture that Yorkvill is shareing the same driver as EAW??
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-05-2003, 07:24 AM
djmariog djmariog is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 826
yorkville / eaw

ABOUT 3 YEARS AGO YOURKVILLE WAS USING RCF DRIVERS NOW THEY ARE USING B&C , EAW ALSO WAS USING RCF AT THE TIME IM NOT SURE IF THEY STILL ARE

MARIO G
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-07-2003, 06:20 PM
Nate Nate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7
Go Digital

I honestly would go with digital. As a club owner, the ability to lock-out a digital processor would be paramount for this situation. Would you want some untrained person coming in saying the sound system isnt good and modifying it, especially after you paid for a consultant to set it correctly? Ontop of that, digital is very inexpensive when you consider what you get.

Take a look at the DBX Driverack 260. This box has everything you would need.

A) Stereo compression and limiting to keep your system from being blown up by the DJ that drives the mixer into redline-ing and distortion.

B) Graphic Equalization on the inputs.

C) Parametric Equalization on EACH of the six outputs.

D) Individually selectable crossover filter types and settings. Your system tech/consultant can use a nice Butterworth filter on the subs and then utilize a Linkwitz Riley for the mid/high and so on.

E) Time delay of up to 2.7 seconds. What if you use a horn loaded subwoofer and a front loaded bass/midbass driver? You would need to time delay them together. What if you used a horn loaded bass and front loaded subs? The same time delay would be needed. What if you used zones of speakers for VIP areas or other things. A whole lot of delay would be needed for speakers located across the dancefloor from the mains. Digital can do it all!


All this talk about losing your presets is because either the installer or the club owner didn't know what they were doing. EVERY digital processor has a computer connection such as an RS-232 serial port. You can easily SAVE your settings to the computer, and IF the processor was to lose the settings, dump it back in. However, you should be using some form of power conditioning and backup power for the digital components such as a UPS.

What is the retail cost of a device like this? No its not $3000 dollars, its $800 dollars. Heck, just two of them would be $1600 and would provide you with TWELVE CHANNELS of processing!

I am sorry, but analog can't compete.

-Nate Bishop
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-07-2003, 09:11 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,945
DBX Driverack?

You are right about being able to lock out unauthorized persons from deliberately or accidentally changing the settings! However, analog gear can be pretected against unauthorized persons with security covers and tamper proof screws, and an amp room thats locked.

Now about sound quality the DBX is on the lowest end of the scale for sonic peformance and it doesnt cost as much as XTA, BSS, KT, or Ashly, and it doesnt sound as good as these units either!

Yes, you do have compression and limiting, if you need to have this in your system. I dont!

Graphic equalization or parametric equalization in the DBX Driverack DOES NOT compare to the sound a good analog graphic will give you at all!

Since during the stages of system design the proper filters and slopes should have already been selected, why would you need multiple slope/filter options, unless your system moves around from place to place, and you are constantly using different types of speaker systems? Or do you use 24db LR filters for the Friday night DJ, and 18db BW for the saturday night DJ?

As for time delay, this can be useful if the system really needs it, but again, proper system design first time out, and you might not need this as much as you are TOLD you need it! BTW, what if you using horn loaded subs, horn loaded 15,s and horn loaded low mid, and physically align the high mid horn and stack tweeter? A properly selected range of speaker systems will integrate correctly both physically and in the time domain, and if the room layout and speaker placement is done by a professional, proper time alignment can be achieved. By the way, proper time alignment is subtle, but the ear finds phase anomalies far more disturbing then slight time abnormalities.

All this talk about losing your presets? Wait! It just hasnt happened to you YET! Wait till you get a power surge, a brownout, or a full power outage! You will be very surprised at how the DSP controllers lose their little minds! Better yet, wait till one crashes on you in the middle of an operating evening! I know many instances of this already having happened!

OK, your DBX is only $800. And it sounds like it too! It isnt a good sounding DSP controller. Right now BSS and XTA are what you see in top flight installs! DBX is what you see in the economy systems! Sorry, Nate, but its true, it isnt the choice to make!

Your right, Analog cannot compete in the realm of one box does it all, but analog done properly sounds so superior to any digital rig out there, it isnt even close.

Unfortunately, they have yet to perfect the conversion process, and digital audio controllers still have that thin, unnatural, elecronic sound to them. There is still something about the midrange when using DSP controllers that doesnt sound right. What good is all the features if the music doesnt sound good?

On the other hand, its all good if you dont listen to your system!

Sorry Mr. Bishop, DSP cant compete with Analog if you want the best sonic performance.

DBX of all choices.
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin

Last edited by clubman5 : 11-07-2003 at 10:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-07-2003, 09:42 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,945
Mr. Bishop

Nate you state that you are a club owner! What club do you own? I would like to come and hear your system.
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-08-2003, 12:17 AM
Nate Nate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7
Re: Mr. Bishop

Quote:
Originally posted by clubman5
Nate you state that you are a club owner! What club do you own? I would like to come and hear your system.


I appologize, I must have worded that wrong, I am a sound tech and not a club owner. I meant to say that as the original poster is a club owner, he/she should seek the best method of locking out unwanted hands. To me, password protection works better. What if the person rented out the club for a night to a promoter? Say that promoter has a sound tech who thinks they can improve upon the system. I am certain they could come up with a screwdriver to remove a security cover. Where there is a will, there is a way.

First off, the reason I recommended the DBX is it is a lower cost solution. While not quite in the same class as an omnidrive, it will work very well for what it does and sounds pretty good, (Keep in mind I am speaking of the 260 and higher models, not the PA). What would have made the situation much more clearer is if the original poster stated a price range he/she intended to work with. If the price had been high, I would have recommended an offering from BSS or XTA instead.

Secondly, about system protection. DJs in your area must be very good about operating a mixer in the green. Around the southeast (Nashville currently, previously Macon, GA), almost all DJs drive the mixer into hard clipping. If there was no system limiting, a sound system would be ripped to shreds in moments. Even hard clipping at a lower level can damage some components. If the DJs in your area do not do this, then I can understand your need for no limiting, but would still advise it as a precautionary measure.

Thirdly, equalization. My point is that the amount of equalization a digital unit gives would require a hefty investment for decent analog equalization. 6 channels of parametric and 2 channels of Graphic represent atleast a couple of grand. Once again, all of it depends on how much the club owner is willing and able to spend.

Fourthly, filters. While I am not that familiar with the Bryston analog crossovers you utilize, most all analog crossovers I am aware of utilize identical filter types on each passband, which most often is a Linkwitz-Riley 4th order. A digital unit would allow any combination of filter types and slopes to meet the needs of the sound system in question. However, if the Bryston is available with multiple add-in cards for crossover types and slopes, then I agree this advantage is nil.

My fifth point is about time delaying. Allow me to quote again as to answer each point independently:

Quote:
As for time delay, this can be useful if the system really needs it, but again, proper system design first time out, and you might not need this as much as you are TOLD you need it! BTW, what if you using horn loaded subs, horn loaded 15,s and horn loaded low mid, and physically align the high mid horn and stack tweeter

I am sure you are aware of the horn length differences needed in a properly designed enclosure of each passband. Sound from a folded horn subwoofer would have a much longer travel time to reach the mouth exit than sound from a horn loaded 15" mid-bass or some other passband. In this case, delay would need to be utilized for the soundwaves to completely match up and constructively add in the crossover region with minimal distortion and combing.

Quote:
By the way, proper time alignment is subtle, but the ear finds phase anomalies far more disturbing then slight time abnormalities.

Actually, it has long been known that the human brain is unable to detect phase differences. However, we are very capable of detecting amplitude differences and time differences greater than 30 milliseconds. But, don't so quickly dismiss timing differences of less than 30 milliseconds. Lets say you have two sources emitting 100Hz, given the speed of sound at 1130 feet per second, the wavelength would be 11.3 feet. Now, if the two sound sources were half of that, 5.65 feet apart, the two sound waves would be 180 degrees out of phase. What if one were a speaker suspended and the other a permanently mounted floor speaker, such as one under a stage. There would be no way to move the speakers 5 feet, so instead you could delay by 5 milliseconds! The ear might not have been able to discern a 5 millisecond difference, but the physical effects of opposite sound waves could clearly be heard. Not everything can be fixed by speaker placement, but I agree that placement is the first solution and delay would be a second.


About DSP crashing and the like. What DSP units were involved that crashed? Like I said in my original post, the settings could easily be stored to computer and then recalled into the unit. A power surge could take out analog components just aswell.

What you have to realize is not everyone has millions of dollars to spend on a sound system. Perhaps this person only has $50,000 or the like. A simple digital unit could save a ton of money in processing and allow them to buy a better mixer or better speakers or a better lighting system. It's all about compromises.

And, its all subjective.

Either way, I am not here to start some holy war over digital versus analog, I am merely introducing a differing viewpoint. Once again, it is my opinion just as analog is your opinion. I respect your opinion and ask that you please respect mine.

-Nate Bishop
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-08-2003, 12:33 AM
jmark jmark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: SF
Posts: 283
I have yet to hear a digitally-controlled system in a club that I thought sounded good. I've heard (and heard about) quite a few problems with digital controllers crashing/muting/making hideous sounds (great vibe-enhancement :-), and most of the time I seem to be hearing very over-active peak-limiting and compression akin to whats heard on FM radio.

Note that I am *not* one of the "digital is inherently evil" people here...using good convertors and good algorithms, I think digital can sound great. I DJ mostly with CD's, converting all my vinyl and remastering it to CD-R's...so you're not going to hear me categorically blasting digital. I do happen to think many currently-marketed digital solutions (such as digital processor/crossovers, and hard-drive systems like Final Scratch) really aren't yet ready for prime-time. (Guitar Center is pushing Final Scratch really hard right now, but I got their demonstrator to admit that he'd never gone a full night without some sort of glitch).

It's also fair to note that analog gear can fail, but the difference is that if you select high-quality analog gear the failure/glitch rate is far less than with any "digital" product currently produced.

Digital has come a very long way in development over the last ten years, so maybe in a few years these issues of sound quality and reliability will have gotten resolved. Until then, I'm certainly not advocating their (digital processors) use in any situation where sound quality is a priority.
__________________
-mark

http://www.markandrus.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-08-2003, 12:40 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,945
hey nate

Are you aware that if your voice coils are in the same vertical plane that is time alignment?

Most crossovers today except for the Rane crossovers can be ordered 6,12, 18, 24,36,and even 48 db per octave, with various filter shapes!

The Bryston 10B,s have multiple slope settings, kind of how the digital crossovers have multiple slope settings. Most of the time you use the same slopes throughout, but there are times when you might choose a different slope for your woofers tan you use for your horns and tweeters. As for your statement about 24db LR being standard, well they have become standard in the prop world, but they are not the best sounding. Yes they have a very steep roll off and offer protection. Yes, they are in absolute phase at crossover frequency. But, and this is documented fact, anything higher than third order filters just sounds unnatural to the ear! The lower order filters actually have better impulse response, and sound more natural. You, as a sound tech or system designer can have many crossovers made to suit your specification.

As for having good dj,s who never redline the system, well, if you have ENOUGH system the dj,s ears will hear what he/she wants and wont be trying to force the system to do what they want. To add, most DJ,s are good, respectable people who WILL listen to what you say. Its this thinking that the DJ cant be trusted and knows nothing that is all wrong. If what you say about DJ,s driving systems recklessly is true, lets look at cars and ordinary people who arent professional drivers, just like you the " Professional sound tech vs ordinary DJ. Every car is able to go above 100mph, right? But most people dont go that fast, even though they can. Most DJ,s are good people who will respect your system. There are a few idiots, but then, there are a few idiots in any walk of life!

EQ,s! Yeah, really good analog EQ,s do cost bucks! But Im after the sound, rather than convenience features. The EQ sections in the DBX, BSS, XTA, or any other DSP unit do not sound as good as a pair of White 4400,s or 4200A,s. However, really good sounding 1/3 octave analog EQ is available for under a grand from BSS! Yup the 966 opal.

Ive not known many DJ,s who walk into a club and say Ive gotts tweak the system! And even less will want to spend time removing security covers to tamper with settings! Most people I know would talk to the tech onhand and ask them if they could make the bass or the highs a lttle more this or that!

Nate, DBX was david Blackmers company, and he sold it to harman. DBX when it was David Blackmers company DID make great sounding products, most noteably his imiters and compressors. Over easy compression is a DBX invention. DBX was also in Massachusets, not Utah. The DBX you have now is not david Blackmer and its made in the same building as DOD! Its a Harman Intl owned name. It isnt DBX like DBX of the years gone by. matter of fact, David Blackmer had another company called Earthworks that made extremely high quality mic pre amps and things like that! They too, became known for their intrinsically great sound quality. And sadly david Blackmer passed away about a year or so ago. So, DBX Driverack really had or has nothing to do with the originator of DBX, David Blackmer. The Driverack is merely a lower cost, re badged DSP controller marketed under Harmans DBX banner! And IF I were to choose to go Digital it wouldnt be with a driverack. I really think, by having listened to systems with, that the XTA units are the best sounding of this genre at the moment. But who cares about sound quality?

and lastly, Nate, you DID make it sound as IF you were a club owner. I suppose some people are supposed to sit up at attention when a club owner speaks?
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-08-2003, 12:49 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,945
Digital glitches!

UnfotuNATEly, It has been my experience over the last decade with audio companies, that they do not admit when something has problems that cannot be fixed! DSP controllers micro processors can and frequently do lock up, lose their programs, or just konk out in the middle of an evening. There is more to it than just power conditioning. These deveices are line voltage sensitive, and even with UPS and conditioning devices do lose their little minds when jolted the right way! Transient voltage will do it, and your power line conditioner doesnt protect aginast transient voltage! For this you need a transient voltage supressor. transient voltage can be up to 3-5000 volts for a 1/100th fraction of a second! too fast for most ordinary power line devices, consumer or pro, to catch!

The power company has devices they can put on your line to catch transients. You would be surprised at how many transients are present on the electric line!

Analog crossovers just keep working, producing their high quality warm sound. DSP controllers wig out! It happens all the time!
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin

Last edited by clubman5 : 11-08-2003 at 01:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-08-2003, 01:25 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,945
Nate

You say you are the tech for a club near Macon Ga. What is the name of the club you work for?
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-08-2003, 05:09 PM
Nate Nate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7
I can respect your opinion and points Scott.

I personally think DBX still makes good products for the money and will continue to use them. When most times a Drawmer or BSS compressor isnt the best choice due to cost, a 166XL certainly will work.

Secondly, I am telling you every single DJ I have come across in my travels but perhaps a handful redline the hell out of the system even when tons of headroom is available. I do not walk into a situation thinking "DJs are idiots" heck, I do not walk into ANY situation thinking the client/musicians/whathaveyou are idiots. I honestly think that DJs around here are used to improperly setup systems at home, and have come to think of distortion as one of the components they seek to gain in the sound. Every soundsystem I setup is crystal clear, free of distortion, except when the mixer is redlined. Who knows, perhaps I just have had my run of bad DJs. One person who really stands out in my mind as not doing this is Vicious Vic. He didnt redline and even actively asked for input about his mix as in did it have too much mids or whatnot on the output EQs.


Time alignment, yes I know that aligning the voice coils identically in the same space will achieve this, but my point is that not all situations will cater to this. There are many installs that do not use the "dancestack" concept, where the mains are flown and therefore cannot be moved. A good number of clubs have subs installed into stages, which also inhibits moving them physically. For this situation time delay is the ONLY alternative. Also, if you have zoned speakers such as under a balcony or for a special seating area, these cannot be physically moved to time align, they would HAVE to be electronically time aligned to the signal coming from the mains.


Which crossovers besides the Bryston do you know that can be ordered with differing filters and slopes? The BSS FDS360 and the KT DN800 are the only ones that comes to mind as having interchangeable filter cards. Those are fairly expensive units. We won't even mention DBX. Ashly's XR series has set filter types too

Also, are you aware that White went out of business? All of their gear can only be gotten through used or old inventory means. Its too bad, they did make good stuff.

And lastly, my intention was NOT to gain some sort of an audience by pretending to be a club owner. I am sorry, but that is a bit far-fetched to believe period. It was a simple grammatical error on my part, to which I have appologized. Lets just leave it at that and not break out the X-Files theories ;-)

-Nate Bishop
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-08-2003, 05:16 PM
Nate Nate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7
I used to live in Macon, GA about 4 years ago. I have since moved to the Nashville, TN area and no longer seek to work with clubs. I am currently working freelance with two regional sound companies, Hugh Bennett Productions and Brantley Sound Associates, while attending college at MTSU. (I'm close to finishing my degree in recording production with a minor in Electro-Acoustics)

When I was in Macon, I tweaked the Liz Reed's sound system about 7 years ago. Its funny to mention it, they had a BSS FDS 360 crossover installed, one of the few units I am aware of with plug-in frequency/filter cards. I mostly worked as a sound contractor for Rave parties and not as much in the club area. There are really only 3 clubs in Macon anyway, and only one of them is decent.

Hope that clarifies.

-Nate
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-08-2003, 05:31 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,945
whatever

nate i am sick and tired of doing this because of contradictions from Paul the only Universally accepted soundman!

Yes Im aware that White went out of buisiness! I am also aware that White EQ,s dont break as I have been using the same pair of 4200A,s since 82! But I recommend BSS-Opal 966 analog EQ because it does sound good, better in my opinion than all of the Digi Eq,s I have heard. And its currently in production.

You can order marchand, Ashly, BSS FDS -360, C-Audio, any way you want them. yes C Audio! they no longer make amps because harman owns em, but they make an 18db BW xover. Bryston 10B,s are switchble on the fly, no cards needed. You order 10b,s and they have front panel switches 6,12,and 18!

I wouldnt do a dance club any other way than using stacks as that is this mans favorite. Of course you can choose as you see fit to! I would find a room and design the way I see fit, and I like the big stack horn loaded sound. Another words, sound was thought about before and as the club was being built, instead of just some afterthought thing like Oh yeah we are gonna need sound, but we dont want to see speakers ya know!

You know that statement Paul made about NOT posting on Wave because their all XXXXX,s freinds? And they will back him up even if hes wrong, which he usually is! Well, are you aware of the fact that I really dont know any of these people! But maybe, just maybe, they have tried things suggested in this forum, and they liked the way it sounded!

How old are you?

Why wont you tell us what the name of the club you work at is?

You like DBX, you use DBX! Its as simple as that!

well, i dont know what DJ,s you have there, but on big systems that kick good, the DJ,s have pretty much always respected the systems up here!

When you need answers, please feel free to email www.pbellsound.com. His phone number is listed on his website so you can call him as well. If you happen to be in Flushing NY drop in on him for a cup of coffee, Im sure he,d love to have you over.

Im out.
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin

Last edited by clubman5 : 11-08-2003 at 05:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-11-2003, 09:24 AM
tom smith tom smith is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 37
sub time alignment

Quote:
Originally posted by clubman5
Are you aware that if your voice coils are in the same vertical plane that is time alignment?


Scott...if the drivers of, lets say, a full range cabinet and a W-horn subwoofer are in the same vertical plane (stacked up). Then the path that the sound has to travel to reach the dancefloor is different for each cabinet (due to the shape of the W-horn enclosure), therefore time alignment is not maintained. Can you expand upon this? lots of times i see a full range stack on a Levan or similar horn and it sounds ok...and in these circumstances you are right - the drivers are probably in just about the same vertical plane. I don't see how it adds up... is 10ms just insignifigant in terms of psychoacoustics?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-12-2003, 11:25 AM
Nate Nate is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7
Re: sub time alignment

Quote:
Originally posted by tom smith
Scott...if the drivers of, lets say, a full range cabinet and a W-horn subwoofer are in the same vertical plane (stacked up). Then the path that the sound has to travel to reach the dancefloor is different for each cabinet (due to the shape of the W-horn enclosure), therefore time alignment is not maintained. Can you expand upon this? lots of times i see a full range stack on a Levan or similar horn and it sounds ok...and in these circumstances you are right - the drivers are probably in just about the same vertical plane. I don't see how it adds up... is 10ms just insignifigant in terms of psychoacoustics?


Hey Tom,

I know I am not Scott, but I will answer your question. I am sure he is familiar with the same concepts and would answer the question similarly, anyway.

In one of my previous posts on this thread, I show that only a 5ms difference in two sound waves caused 100Hz to be totally cancelled out.

In your case, 10ms of difference is roughly 11.3 feet of difference (which is a 100Hz soundwave) between the peaks of two sound waves. Now, say we have a sound wave whose wavelength is 22.6 feet, twice the wavelength of 11.3 feet. Now, at 11.3 feet of difference, the two sound waves would be 180 degrees out of phase, one peak rising and one peak falling, thus cancelling each other out. The frequency where this cancellation occurs is 50Hz.

But wait! There are more frequencies where this difference cancels:
100Hz
200Hz
400Hz
800HZ
1600Hz
3200Hz
6400Hz
12,800Hz
25,600Hz (but you won't be able to hear that anyway)

Of course, this whole range of frequencies does not matter if it is ONLY a W-bin sub and a front-loaded bass cabinet. The 50HZ and probably the 100Hz do matter significantly in this situation.

If the 10ms was a difference between two main speakers that were reproducing the full audio spectrum, every single one of these frequencies would be effectively notched out due to the soundwave cancellation.

Essentially what I am trying to say is, ANY time difference, no matter how small, can and will create problems like these. That is why so many people nowadays are utilizing computer-based signal analysis platforms such as Siasoft's SMAART. These use a reference microphone and an input of source material such as a record or CD or pink noise to analyze a sound system and provide things like how much delay must be set to compensate for the 10ms difference, and other such things.

Hope this helps,

-Nate Bishop

Last edited by Nate : 11-12-2003 at 11:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-14-2003, 06:44 AM
shihp001 shihp001 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 252
amps and speakers

Sorry for not responding to any post when I was the one that started this topic and thanks for all the responses. I like to have analog system in my future club and I also understand Nate's point of view. I live in Hawaii, and most of the djs here suck ass when come to respect the sound system in a club, and also these sucker djs somehow think they know sound and start twicking the eqs with a thin object through the grill cover. I also undersand when opening a club with limited budjet and going with digital system.

I would like to know how much a basic analog system costs compare to a digital system. Do I must use bryston amps and TAD speakers to sound good? What's the alternative to the amps and speckers? Can I upgrade it later without upgrate the entire sytem? Thanks.

Paul Shih
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.0.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2006 Wave Music


© Wave Entertainment Group, Inc.