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  #1  
Old 10-28-2010, 12:25 PM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Limiter recommendations?

I need a recommendation for a good quality limiter to run a club system through. I don't know anything about limiters except what I've heard from others: it's like a compressor with an incredibly steep ratio that only kicks in when the output exceeds a certain point, correct?

We've discovered that the system sounds incredibly good even when it's at it max, so DJs will definitely be tempted to push it too far. I want to put a limiter in the signal path to brick-wall it when it hits the red. The system is four Klipschorns powered by two HH V800 MOSFETS. That's it.

Brands? Models?

Or, is there a better way to solve my problem?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 10-28-2010, 12:50 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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check out drawmer units, top flight stuff

They make excellent analog comp/limters, digital mastering equipment in both solid state and tube.


another option:
you could sink a screw/bolt into the faceplate that limits the clockwise rotation of the pot where you want it to stop! Check the face of the RLA X2000, you can see where a screw was set into the face, there are several more on the full range section also....

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...=o.91705147895

Last edited by Mistick Krewe : 10-28-2010 at 10:43 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-28-2010, 12:53 PM
atf104 atf104 is offline
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Yea a limiter is a compressor with infinite "ratio" or slope.

The first question is what processing do you have now? Do you have a dsp or other system processing? This function is built into most processors.

You really don't want a system level where someone is always in compression or limiting, or at least any kind of "brick wall" limiting. A little compression can help a system, a lot, no matter how well setup, kills the dynamics. See if you can have a dj or manager that can keep the levels in a certain range first, with the limiting as last resort to protect the system, which is how it's usually done.

You can then add a digital sound processor, or a standalone analog compressor/limiter depending on your budget. They start at a few hundred from DBX, Behrenger or Rane up into the thousands with high end tube types like models from Summit Audio, Manley, Avalon, etc. I highly recommend this piece: http://www.summitaudio.com/dcl200.html, but it's going to cost you about $3k.
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  #4  
Old 10-28-2010, 12:57 PM
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mynameismatt mynameismatt is offline
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Mistick mentioned Drawmer...and I think Shorty mentioned this unit before:

http://www.drawmer.com/products/prot...-protector.php
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  #5  
Old 10-28-2010, 02:23 PM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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Formula Sound have great products for this....
These don't affect your dynamic range..

http://www.formula-sound.com/product...ymk2/index.php

http://www.formula-sound.com/products/at1/index.php
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Last edited by vinyl_junkie : 10-28-2010 at 02:28 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-28-2010, 02:30 PM
John-Martin John-Martin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime Twig
I need a recommendation for a good quality limiter to run a club system through. I don't know anything about limiters except what I've heard from others: it's like a compressor with an incredibly steep ratio that only kicks in when the output exceeds a certain point, correct?

We've discovered that the system sounds incredibly good even when it's at it max, so DJs will definitely be tempted to push it too far. I want to put a limiter in the signal path to brick-wall it when it hits the red. The system is four Klipschorns powered by two HH V800 MOSFETS. That's it.

Brands? Models?

Or, is there a better way to solve my problem?

Thanks

Formula Sound makes a volume limiter that isn't a limiter. Link
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  #7  
Old 10-28-2010, 04:38 PM
Digitalis Digitalis is offline
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I have a similar situation for an outdoor event I work with. I picked up the Formula Sound AVC2 that John-Martin recommended. It does not do much to protect the system, but it is perfect for maintaining a consistent program level.

It is tamper resistant, there are lights to give warning and feedback to the DJ and you can set two distinct volume levels and switch between them remotely without affecting the level at the mixer (if you need a quieter room after 2AM for example). There is no "compression," just even attenuation of the entire system so dynamic range is preserved.

Most importantly, the "reward system" of the AVC2 stops DJs slamming the system until the processor overloads. As you run the mixer past the threshold, the volume will be attenuated by more than you passed the threshold. This way the speakers will play the loudest when the AVC2 is not doing any attenuation. You only have to explain it once to the DJ and they will quickly understand what they have to do through the usual "experimentation." With a compressor or limiter, even though you are capping the peak volume level, the speakers will sound louder because the dynamic range is compressed and the DJ will continue to push the mixer until something bad happens to either the sound quality or the equipment.

The Formula Sound SentryMK2 and AT-1 limit volume in a room based on a measurement microphone built into the Sentry unit. These are designed for compliance with strict UK noise regulations and are probably not what you need.

Anyway... for protecting a system an AVC2 is not the processor to have since transients will sneak by... but for limiting overall volume level without dynamic range compression it is perfect, purpose built and I cannot recommend it enough.
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  #8  
Old 10-28-2010, 10:48 PM
Richi Richi is offline
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Limiters will not prevent voice coils from buring out if the average power is increased, too much power over an extended period will still destroy drivers.
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Last edited by Richi : 02-02-2011 at 06:49 PM.
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  #9  
Old 10-28-2010, 11:01 PM
dino59 dino59 is offline
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if you dont want to make a hole in the mixer then you can make a plexi glass plate wth the holes cut for the mixer and put a screw through the plexiglass so the knob cant pass that point ,Paul Bell gave me a crossover with that installed ,whats great about that is when you remove the plexi glass the unit is back to normal ,better yet because the faceplate is still new and not rubbed out .
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2010, 12:31 AM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Great advice all around, thanks. The Drawmer SP2120 looks closest to what I want so far: any cheaper options that folks think are nearly as good?

Right now the system is 100% analog and as simple as can be. I want to keep it that way. It's:

Technics 1200 --> Urei 1620 --> two Bryston 4Bs --> four Klipschorns.

The limiter is the only processing I want in the signal chain if at all possible. Might need an EQ until I can thoroughly "EQ" the room through proper room acoustics.

Finally got it all running today. Sounds effing incredible without even tweaking it. Played K.C. Flightt's "Voices (original dub)" for the club owner and his jaw dropped. Played Taana Gardner's "When you touch me" and all of our jaws dropped. So live, visceral, and powerful.

We'll add two 15" folded horn subs from Yorkville (tuned very, very low; just to move air) but already those K-horns are more powerful than I ever imagined.



Quote:
Originally Posted by atf104
Yea a limiter is a compressor with infinite "ratio" or slope.

The first question is what processing do you have now? Do you have a dsp or other system processing? This function is built into most processors.

You really don't want a system level where someone is always in compression or limiting, or at least any kind of "brick wall" limiting. A little compression can help a system, a lot, no matter how well setup, kills the dynamics. See if you can have a dj or manager that can keep the levels in a certain range first, with the limiting as last resort to protect the system, which is how it's usually done.

You can then add a digital sound processor, or a standalone analog compressor/limiter depending on your budget. They start at a few hundred from DBX, Behrenger or Rane up into the thousands with high end tube types like models from Summit Audio, Manley, Avalon, etc. I highly recommend this piece: http://www.summitaudio.com/dcl200.html, but it's going to cost you about $3k.
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  #11  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:29 AM
vinyl_junkie vinyl_junkie is offline
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The screw idea is great, Ministry Of Sound had this on their Urei 1620

The House out had a screw through the front pannel so you could not go over 7 on that pot.

You are using a 1620, this is also great..Mixer's like the Bozak and Urei make it a lot harder to destroy a system with as they don't give the user as much gain as say a DJM-600 which has per ch gains and a master gain.

You could quite easily set the mixer so the user can max out the inputs and the system will still have headroom without the use of any limiting
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Last edited by vinyl_junkie : 10-29-2010 at 05:00 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-30-2010, 01:02 PM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinyl_junkie
You could quite easily set the mixer so the user can max out the inputs and the system will still have headroom without the use of any limiting

How would I do that? That sounds great.
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  #13  
Old 10-30-2010, 03:23 PM
atf104 atf104 is offline
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I'd recommend a pair of these for something more mid-range:

http://www.dbxpro.com/160A/index.php

Also you probably definitely want an EQ, this is my favorite analog eq:

http://www.bssaudio.com/productpg.php?product_id=2



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lime Twig
Great advice all around, thanks. The Drawmer SP2120 looks closest to what I want so far: any cheaper options that folks think are nearly as good?

Right now the system is 100% analog and as simple as can be. I want to keep it that way. It's:

Technics 1200 --> Urei 1620 --> two Bryston 4Bs --> four Klipschorns.

The limiter is the only processing I want in the signal chain if at all possible. Might need an EQ until I can thoroughly "EQ" the room through proper room acoustics.

Finally got it all running today. Sounds effing incredible without even tweaking it. Played K.C. Flightt's "Voices (original dub)" for the club owner and his jaw dropped. Played Taana Gardner's "When you touch me" and all of our jaws dropped. So live, visceral, and powerful.

We'll add two 15" folded horn subs from Yorkville (tuned very, very low; just to move air) but already those K-horns are more powerful than I ever imagined.
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  #14  
Old 10-30-2010, 06:52 PM
grizz grizz is offline
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The Formula Sound Level Controllers are good. Alternatives are offered from Rodec, Apex or Dateq, as well as probably some others. The DBX unit posted above is probably not what you want. Sound Level controllers work different than music compressors/limiters or limiters to protect your speakers from peaks, even though, a well set controller is also able to protect your system to a certain degree. You don't want a brick-wall limiting.

"It should be noted that this unit is not a compressor and will not significantly change the dynamic range of the music. This is because it is fairly slow in its action and therefore has a response time of a few seconds depending on musical content." [www.formula-sound.com]

Last edited by grizz : 10-30-2010 at 07:08 PM.
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  #15  
Old 10-30-2010, 09:51 PM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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I've used the Drawmer SP2120 with very good results.
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  #16  
Old 11-01-2010, 07:22 PM
Lime Twig Lime Twig is offline
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Thanks, everyone.

The Formula AVC2 was winning my heart for a while until it said that it wouldn't work well when mixers were switched. Sadly, this will happen often since i'm installing a rotary and djs will no doubt often bring a scratch mixer instead.
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