Wave Music Home
ReleasesCommunityYour OrderWave Music
ArtistsEventsDJ MixesShop

Wave Music Home


Home
About Us
Labels
Distributed Labels
Links




Search


Adv. Search



Subscribe


Email






Go Back   Wave Music Community Board > Tech Talk for Gearheads

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-06-2003, 06:46 PM
18hands 18hands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 14
VRM-10 Tube Mixer vs. Urei

I was reading the many reviews on vintage mixers and new tube mixers. You guys really know your stuff.

I own a Stanton VRM-10 mixer which also has tubes. I really like the sound quality, specially when I play CD's through it.

Although it doesn't look like a Urei knockoff. I like the sound on it better than the Rane MP2016 which I also own.

In fact I run the Rane through the Stanton to warm up the sound.

What do you think of the Stanton VRM-10 sound vs. the Urei sound.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-06-2003, 08:27 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,421
comparison these two mixers

I can`t honestly give an answer as far as comparing the 2 against each other because i am not familiar with this mixer. But i can say i dont hear anybody saying that we need to hear this stanton piece.
We heard how great the r1 was supposed to be and it wasnt, then we heard how great the zone v6 was supposed to be at 4500.00 and in my opinion it deff was`nt.
So i can`t give you any opinion about this comparison.
I do no that i have worked with the 2016 which i`ve mentioned b4 that i`m not a fan of, but on a few occasions I`ve worked with the 2016 and the one club i work on now in nyc called Splash bar has the 2016 with a complete Analog sound system not at all state of the art by todays standards and Centro fly has the V6 with a state of the Art digital system with literally 14 times the power than splash and you hear more musical information and much better sound quality at Splash than you do in centro fly.
Now that can be because of what ever there doing in centro thats limiting that system or something else so the v6 cant really shine but from what i heard at Centro i am not interested in using the V6 & i will stick with the Urei or bozak.
www.systemsbyshorty.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-06-2003, 08:52 PM
18hands 18hands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 14
VRM-10 reviews

that's kind of why I posted. I've never seen any kind of reviews for my mixer. Specially from people who really know what good sound is.

I've read stuff from people who think pioneer's sound good and I know for a fact that they don't.

This mixer cost me about $1200 and some change. Just wanted to know if anyone has played with it or heard it and what they thought.

I know that Space in Miami wanted to install it but it was too big for their booth at 8U. Also, the faders are heavy and they slip down at a 45 degree angle.

Dj Tiesto who was voted #1 in the DJ MAG swears by it. But he hasn't been around as long as some and I wonder what he compares it to.

Hope someone can help.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-06-2003, 10:04 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,946
I dont know

Ive seen ads for it!

Ive never heard it.

No club I know of is using it.

I dont really hear anyone talking aboutit.

Tiesto swears by it in an ad.

Louie Vega hyped the Rane in an ad.

For the right price will you endorse products?

Advertisement is advertisement!

Does every athlete really drink and love Bud light?

Can I come to your place and listen to the Stanton mixer?

Then Ill give you a very definite answer on what I think of it!

Rightnow, I dont know anything about it.
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-06-2003, 10:55 PM
18hands 18hands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 14
Ad campaigns

I don't know that Tiesto is endorsed by Stanton.

If he is now he wasn't a year ago when he told me that he bought one of these mixers because he liked it so much.

Also I didn't see any Stanton posters during his Area 2 tour with Moby when he requested to use the mixer.

I also wondered why George Acosta bought the floor unit before I could get to the store. He isn't even from DC. Oh well I still got my discount.

I wouldn't mind letting you hear the Stanton at my studio if you are ever in the Washington, D.C. area and are still interested.

The other thing is that I could record a CD through the Stanton into a set top CD recorder via the SPDIF output and post a small clip with and without the tubes and you guys could compare on your own systems.

I'm game just want to see what you guys thought of the sound.



Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-06-2003, 11:20 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,946
like I said before

im not putting it down in any way. I just dont know anything about it! I have seen ads for it. but until I hear it, I just dont know. as for ads, well, they advertise to sell product. they will and have paid DJ,s that are currently respected and popular to endorse things. hey, the stanton could be all that! I never said it wasnt.

But, I have to hear it and just because someone else says doesnt always mean it will be the same for me!

The tubes soften the CD,s sound! This will make harsh thin sounding CD,s sound better, no doubt on that!

hows the bass through the Stanton?

I know what i like, and i just heard the new allen-heath V6!

And it was ok, but it wasnt worth $4500 to me!

So, dont take me wrong, i am not knocking the stanton, i say what I said before, I dont know anything about it, as of yet, and other than what Ive seen advertised!
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-06-2003, 11:40 PM
18hands 18hands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 14
I wonder how well it would work

I know that the best way to test the mixers sound quality is on a Club PA system.

But what if we decided on a experiment 20 sec piece of music from a CD.

It could be anything from any genre.

have different versions.... a Urei version, Bozak version, etc. etc.. and ofcoarse a plain version.

Then we download and listen on our computers with some good flat studio grade headphones.

This could help ignorant people like me, who don't know what the Urei sound is, get more aquainted and learn from people with vintage set ups that are hard to come by.

I would be more than happy to post something from my stanton but I would rather somebody pic music they are familiar with.

I could post it in uncompressed *.WAV format or high bit rate MP3
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-06-2003, 11:59 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,946
Ok now I understand more

You want to hear the urei sound! You dont know its sound!

The best way is hearing the 2 mixers, on the same system, with the same music!

I dont know if wav files or mp3 will translate the sound of either mixer properly!

The urei sound i can tell you somthing about! it has a warmish sound. clean. good solid bass. Extended highs! But if you play a bad sounding recording through it, the urei wont make it into gold! A good recording will have dimensional mids. Clear. Good highs. And tight, defined bass!

These results will be had on a properly set up system!

The Bozak sound has an even heavier bass. More punch and weight. the mids from a bozak are kinda tubelike! very present! the highs are sweet sounding. Finer if you know what I mean. Bozak is less hashy sounding, but the urei is good!

In the specs of the Stanton does it tell you how much voltage the outputs can produce?

I cant say this for sure, but i think if you hear either the Bozak or urei you may be quite surprised!

On the other hand I might be surprised by the Stanton!

Mixes just flow on the Bozak and the urei. the pots have a quality feel!

Both mixers have good power supplys. the Bozak has the bigger power supply! this makes a big difference sonically.

Both mixers are very solidly built and are heavy, by todays standards.

You know what you said about running the Rane through the Stanton to warm it up? you wouldnt have to do this with the bozak or urei. The Rane is weak and thin compared to the urei. the highs from the urei have sparkle, whereas the rane highs sound flat and dull!

The Bozak will make your speakers produce bass that shakes the walls! very warm! Very strong!
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-07-2003, 12:30 AM
18hands 18hands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 14
Stanton specs

I'm looking at the manual.

Which is very small I might add.

Says.....

Mains
Power Consumption 50VA

then there is a voltage selector fuse
2230v/500ma
115v/1A
100v/1A (but I think this for European outlets and connectivity)

The power supply is internal so I think that it's different in this way...I really never understood the whole good power supply = good sound. Someone explained it to me once but I didn't quite get it. I know some of the big boards at the shop have nice ones but that's it. Could you please explain.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-07-2003, 01:24 AM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,946
no No No

What i mean by voltage the output can swing is how much signal can this Stanton mixer put out! The music at the main output feeding your EQ or amp!

The urei can put out 13.75 volts from the transformer balanced outputs!

A hyped up Bozak can put out 15 volts of signal!

Your talking about how much power the unit takes from the wall!

The better the power supply the more output you can get out of the mixer clean!

A flimsy power supply may not be able to keep up with the demands you place on it. So, if your driving the mixer hard, and your amps arent clipping, but the music starts to sound harsh, your mixer is running out of gas!

The Bozaks power rails to feed the circuits is + - 40 volts DC. That means this mixer will not have to be pushed as hard, and will produce a strong, clean sounding output!

if the Stanton mixer has a power supply that is inferior to either the bozak or the urei it will not be able to keep up with either one of them!

you hear the power supply most in the bass! big power supply that are well designed in quality units produce better sounding bass!

You ever hear an amp that has TONS of rated power, but the bass is kinda weak? Like some of todays lightweight, high power amps? This is because they have small power supplys.

Kinda like cars too! You take a six cylinder. It starts to get rough feeling at high speeds when your pushing it, and you reach a point where you cant get anymore out of it!

Then you ride or drive in a car with a big V8. At 60mph the car is coasting effortessly, and when you step down on the gas to pass someone the V8 has the reserve power to accelerate smoothly and quickly without strain!

Same with electronics!

or you could look at it like weight lifting. You arent built like a house. You struggle to benchpress 200lbs.

This other guy is a moose, and he benches 280lbs like its a sack of feathers! the big guy has the power supply thats designed to go the distance! the electronics built like this sound big, full, and clean without strain!

Your the power supply in the lightweight amp that struggles to do the job! As you reach your limits you may complete the job, but very strained, winded and rough and unclean sounding!
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-07-2003, 01:10 PM
ruanne ruanne is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 16
Stanton Piece o Crap

Stanton Gave us one to try , It doesnt really stand up to the Rigourous Use at all.

First of all the are a couple of basic design flaws on it, First of all the power switch is located within Dj reach , no no number one. The sound of the mixer i found quite transparent. The mixer however is easly overdriven and audio quality degrades exponentially quickly. Output of the mixer is relaitvly quiet, it has 0 or +6 swith on rear. Filters on mixer more fluid then allen and heath zone, but audible dip in level when engaged. Eq I did like the parametric mid range. Otherwise it was just to big faders do move with angle or a normal amount of lfe in a club. For users of microphone's there are 2 mic ins 2 gains but only one level control for both of them.

I hope this helps a bit. Any further details you would like to know just shout
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-07-2003, 01:27 PM
18hands 18hands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 14
is there any way to measure the volts on the signal

I can't seem to get any answers about the output signal.

Is there anyway I can measure the volts from the signal?

Thanks for the review RU. I use the piece for recording mostly so I don't have the LFE faders problem. I know that stanton has optional rotaries for this thing that feel just like the knobs on the filters. It's just kind of big for night clubs. This one club Glow @ Insomnia asked to borrow it but it just wouldn't fit into their booth.

I kind of like the dip in the bass signal when I engage the filters. I usually cut the bass with the filters and then I use the trigger button to slam the bass back in.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-07-2003, 04:47 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,946
a technician could measure the output

But all I gotta do is listen to the thing and ill be able to say if it does or doesnt!

I would be willing to A-B either a urei or a bozak against the Stanton.

How well do you suppose the stanton mixer will drive my system with 15 amplifiers?
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-07-2003, 05:11 PM
nleote nleote is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 59
really??

C´mon guys...not meaning to be unfaithful,but since when Stanton produces ANYthing worth talking about???
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-07-2003, 05:35 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 273
Send a message via AIM to edwardcampbell Send a message via MSN to edwardcampbell
STANTON

I can't believe there is a actual discussion on a Stanton mixer. There is no comparison to a Urei or Bozak, they are the best out there to this day, no one has the balls to make one better. It takes a real audio buff, no wanna be's.
__________________
Ed (NY Sound) Campbell
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-16-2003, 09:04 PM
18hands 18hands is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 14
and the answer is......

I finally got an answer from Stanton.

The Master 1 output and the Master 2 output is rated 12.5 volts.

The Booth output is rated at 7.5 volts

You were right the Urei and Bozak does put out more signal.

I'm still curious as to how a CD recording sounds out of the Urei of Bozak.

Thanks for the info....rock on guys.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-17-2003, 01:43 AM
djnito djnito is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 13
SELL OR TRADE VRM-10

I HAVE THE STANTON VRM-10 MIXER BRAND NEW IN THE BOX WITH MANUALS AND POWER CORD. NEVER BEEN USED STILL SEALED IN BOX. WILL SELL OR TRADE FOR THE RANE MP-2016 XP-2016. I HEARD THE SOUND ON THIS MIXER AT ULTRA FEST 2003 WHEN PAUL OAKENFOLD WAS MIXING ON IT IS GREAT IT'S VERY WARM AND IT DROPS SERIOUS TIGHT WARM BASS, AND CLEAR HIGHS AND MIDS.

CONTACT ME @.
djnito1@yahoo.com
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-17-2003, 07:32 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 637
VRM-10

If the Stanton sounds so great why do you want to swap it for a Rane/UREi?
__________________
Please note that this account is dormant for the time being. I apologise to all that have sent PMs - there are just not enough hours in the day!

Bozak CMA 10-2-DL Full Rebuild

How Mixer Level Controls Work

Important Differences Between Types of Bozak
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-17-2003, 07:43 PM
jmark jmark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: SF
Posts: 283
umm...

the words "paul" and "oakenfold" in that posting told me all I needed to know :-)
__________________
-mark

http://www.markandrus.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-17-2003, 09:58 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,946
Out of Curiosity.

Is the Stanton mixer any good? Ive seen ads for it, but I dont know anyone who uses one!
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-18-2003, 12:07 AM
djnito djnito is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 13
VRM-10

(SIZE).... IT'S A LITTLE TOO BIG FOR MY LIKES, BUT AS FAR AS THE SOUND QUALITY GOES IT'S THE BEST THING I'VE HEARD IN A WHILE. I'M A RANE FREAK THOUGH AND I'VE USED THE 2016 BEFORE SO I'M COMFORTABLE WITH IT, EVEN THOUGH THE SOUND IS NOT AS TIGHT ON THE RANE AS THE VRM-10 I LIKE THE FULL CUTS ON THE 2016. OVERALL THE VRM-10 IN MY OPINION IS THE CLOSEST THING TO A UREI RIGHT NOW. LIKE I SAID WILL TRADE OR SELL.

djnito1@yahoo.com
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-18-2003, 10:21 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 637
VRM-10

If you were selling the VRM-10 to pay your kid's school fees I would not resort to this, but seeing as you are not I will take this opportunity to tell the users in this forum to AVOID it like the plague.

The VRM-10 is unquestionably one of (possibly THE) WORST mixers I HAVE EVER USED. A 1985 Numark PPD would supply finer audio-quality IMO (who styled the VRM-10? D'you think they got their inspiration from "Bathroom-Mart" with all that chrome?). My allegations against the VRM-10 are:

1) LOW-HEADROOM, extremely "WOOLY" sound, very easy to clip.

2) Appalling controls. Steel-fader-knobs "run-away" with themselves, rotaries have the CHEAPEST feel I've ever felt.

3) USELESS METERING. Much as I LOVE "MAGIC-EYES", the calibration of this particular EM84 is WAY-OUT, NO USE AT ALL

4) GUTLESS, GIMMICKY, EASY TO OVERLOAD DIGITAL FX

5) UN-ERGONOMIC, CLUTTERED LAYOUT

In short:
STICK YOUR VRM-10 ON EBAY DUDE, NO-ONE ON THIS FORUM IS GONNA BE SUFFICIENTLY BEREFT OF GREY MATTER TO CONTEMPLATE SUCH A LAME PURCHASE
__________________
Please note that this account is dormant for the time being. I apologise to all that have sent PMs - there are just not enough hours in the day!

Bozak CMA 10-2-DL Full Rebuild

How Mixer Level Controls Work

Important Differences Between Types of Bozak
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-18-2003, 10:56 AM
georget georget is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Chicago, Il
Posts: 129
Time Out

Thermionic, you certainly have your opinions and can probably state them without inflating your ego in the process. You may be under the false impression that *you* are an audio god or something. State your points and go on.

I remember how Francois K stated once that he thought the Urei mixer was the cleanest of all mixers and scott and the others jumped on his case making sure *he* understood that it is the bozak that is the better mixer, while he was just stating an audio preference. This is madness.

It seems that all the points you made are preferencial. I have to use all kinds of mixers when I am out djing and I have clipped none because I know how to set the input, the gains, the faders, etc. So my question for you is, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE DOING? Do you need a mixer that has the headroom of the Urei or the Bozak mixer? Many times I think it is the djs that are the main problem, not the equipment. Incidentally, who the hell thinks that we are in 1970? Do you need a mixer with 13+ V output? Both Urei and Bozak mixers are overkills and to tell you the truth, I hate rotary faders and I don't want some punk to tell me that they are better for mixing. They are so akward to use and the lack of channel eqs is so lame. I am with Francois K, give me a mixer with EQs per channel and I am a happy camper. I also agree that the Urei/Bozaks were good 20 years ago. Not now.

Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-18-2003, 01:44 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 637
Quality mixers and the lack of them

Hello Jahselecta. A couple of points: firstly there’s a part of this site labelled "trading post" for people to sell second-hand mixers. Secondly, if you had any fundamental audio-engineer training you would know that there is NO SUCH THING AS ENOUGH HEADROOM. Why do mastering-equalisers run rail-voltages at +/-60v? Music is exponential and there are numerous research-studies (if you look hard enough I’m sure you can find one on the ‘web, this debate has been around since the ‘60s) that prove physically/mathematically that at least 10x the rms value of any given passage is required to accommodate peaks. This is true of speaker-amplification and signal-amplification alike. I’m sure some of the other engineers on the forum will support this statement. Any mixer that runs at +/-13v will turn peaks into square-waves (unless you are applying large-amounts of gain with the rest of the system to make-up for the mixers low-output, in which case your s/n ratio will be poor).

DJs have been exploited for years with homogenised, mass-produced, under-engineered equipment. If my passion for trying to enforce the same standards in DJ-audio that studio-professionals take for granted runs away with me, and leads you to interpret me as having a big-ego then so be it, there’s nothing wrong with having an ego as long as it’s channelled constructively. Maybe the fact that UREi/BOSAK run such high-rail-voltages is part of their enduring appeal, either that or we’ve all fallen for some kind of nostalgic hype, somehow I think hype is not the case…
__________________
Please note that this account is dormant for the time being. I apologise to all that have sent PMs - there are just not enough hours in the day!

Bozak CMA 10-2-DL Full Rebuild

How Mixer Level Controls Work

Important Differences Between Types of Bozak
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-18-2003, 02:33 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,946
let Scott explain Scott!

Jahselecta, I never " Got on Francois case" I just said that the Bozak is the better sounding between the urei and Bozak!

Now, as far as Stanton,s mixer I asked a question. I havent heard it and know very little about it!

As far as Rane vs Bozak vs urei vs featurre laden mixers of now the sound is what I go for. and the urei and Bozak still have terrific sound! They arent outdated, but they dont have as many superficial features as some of their modern counterparts!

Power supply rails. Oh they make a big difference! Just like an amplifier, if the power supply cant cut it, nothing else will either. Try running a BMW M5 on 87 octane regular and youll always wonder why the car doesnt live up to its potential. The cleaner and beefier the power rails and supply the better the quality of audio. Allen & heath seem to think power supply and rails make a difference! they have also used big rails and their unit is rated to produce +28dbm from the balanced outputs and + 27dbm from the booth output! By the way +28dbm is about 15 volts of output! If its UNNECCESARY in todays world why did they do it this way?

People ask questions and have opinions! Audio and its gear is subjective and up to each individual as to what they prefer! I am just very voiceiferous about my OPINIONS! However, you can disagree with me. I do what I like and you do what you like! And when people ask me to tell them HOW to get things to sound the way my stuff does, well then I can only give the answers that have been formed over many years from MY OPINIONS!


Peace and happy spinning!
__________________
Mr. Scott Fitlin
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin Version 3.0.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2006 Wave Music


© Wave Entertainment Group, Inc.