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  #1  
Old 06-01-2003, 07:17 PM
scooppunk scooppunk is offline
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LAB SUBS

I've been reading a lot about these new LAB subs. Similar to the basstech 7's but with 2 12" drivers. In the site they're all raving about them. are they THAT good? I need some unbias opinion before i get rid of my scoops and build some.

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  #2  
Old 06-02-2003, 06:20 PM
bull19 bull19 is offline
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Personally I think the lab subs are great for deep bass reproduction,but are not very godd for the upper bass/mid that scoops give.Hence the word 'subs',they are really only good for sub bass.So using them with the scoops,or if Scoop punk wanted to sell his scoops,like he said,he would still need a bass bin to provide that mid bass kick.

So a labhorn sub and a w bin or a bass reflex bin,would be ideal.But since the lab subs are only 12 inch and 400w rms each,but they have very long x max,and move a lot of air.
So any application really is suitable for them,[except for stadium/touring/concert use where you would need a very high wattage sub woofer of at least 600w rms.].
Also to put into consideration is a 12 inch doesn't sound as 'large scale' as say a 18 inch,this means the bass won't be as pure and rich as an 18 inch,but still will be deep.

The only big problem with scoop bass bins,is their size and weight,and they give more boomy bass than pure natural rich bass from lets say a W bin,or double 18 inch bass reflex.So really scoops aren't used much anymore,except people on a budget who want a big thumping bass sound,that small single driver bass reflex boxes never really deliver,only sometimes like the EAW ones.
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  #3  
Old 06-03-2003, 07:56 AM
scooppunk scooppunk is offline
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labs

I was under the impression (from people on the site) that the mid bass is ok because they are 12" cones and hence less mass to move. They run the subs at 2k a bin, so why wouldn't 2 12"s at 1000w each be ok for touring/concert? Thats what i sort of need it for.
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  #4  
Old 06-03-2003, 02:41 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Lab sub

the 12in driver used for this sub is designed specifically for horn loaded subwoofer use. 12,s tend to be faster then 18,s but cannot move as much air. For home use, Im sure the Lab Sub would be fine! The real question is How does it sound? This I dont know, but if you could hear them somewhere, you will know if they are the sound you want.

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  #5  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:22 PM
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maths

Cone area of the two 12inch drivers in labsub is approx 226sq inch.

Cone area of one 18inch area in a average horn box is approx 254sq inch.

I didn't check actual effective cone area of lab Eminence driver or average 18, so forgive me!

Therefore one labsub can move a similar if not more air than some single eighteen boxes. Air moving ability is also dependent on excursion and BL of driver.

pi multiplied by radius squared!

For a the real deal on the labsub, then the labsub forum is the place. On this forum only Paul Bell has heard these to my knowledge. I would say that these are not cheap to build or power and that a single driver high efficency design might be better for you needs. If I was to build these I wouldn't bother building less than eight. This will give a very good low end extension and output, you are looking at 16 drivers for this and 4 modern mega poweramps!

Hey Scott, slow eighteens is a bit of a misonmer INMO, I think we hear a fatter sound, perhaps sounds slower. Slower would mean 50hz signal in 49 out! Is group delay more on a eighteen box? Mind you group delay is less of issue with sealed chamber folded horns compared to a reflex box.
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  #6  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:26 PM
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Labsub

Have you costed these?

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  #7  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:39 PM
scooppunk scooppunk is offline
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lab forum

Yea, i was looking for an unbiased, outside opinion. The people on the forum are all there because they have built them and rave about them being the best etc.

As far as moving air is concerned, 2 12" cones give 30% more surface area than an 18, making it the same as 21" driver. apparently.

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  #8  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:49 PM
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Not with my maths!

If you build just 4 of these I think you will disapointed. For the similar money you might be able to build 8 high efficiency single eighteen folded horns.

Labhorns are made to pack tight into large trucks and go lower than any other sub. Things like amp power needed or cost of build is very much in the proper pro league.

Low frequncy extension is not really the making of a good dance music sub. A lot of popular designs don't go all that low. I think you are after bang for buck after all!
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  #9  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:15 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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speed

12 inch drivers react faster to input than an 18 inch woofer. Less mass/weight = faster reaction time. this is what you hear that makes 12,s sound snappier. But some like the FATNESS of the 18in woofer sound. Its a matter of preference.

Dave, I have learned through the years, IT ALL LOOKS GREAT ON PAPER! But specs and theory dont always result in the sound you were looking for!

Bottom line, If you HEAR the Lab Sub and YOU like the way they sound, then they are right for you! Period. I wish I could hear these. Then I could say what I think of them. All I can say is that others seem to like these alot!
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  #10  
Old 06-03-2003, 07:44 PM
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Labsub

Hello Scott

I am neutral in my opinions on Labsubs. I just like to keep some facts and stop too much misnfomation on this design. These are very suitable for concert use, power rating of drivers is irelevant to what these actually put out. Actual measured output is very good. Tonal quality is another matter to taste.

I have the PDF's, I have the money and I have the ability to build 8 of these. I haven't heard them. Money stays in pocket!

Dance music stadard here, Funktion 1 double 18 boxes and double eighteen turbo boxes. Very hard in the kick dept, need to be stacked in fours to get realy low extension.
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  #11  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:56 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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yes........

Exactly! I have listened to speakers, that according to the specs, I thought I wouldnt like! And THIS is how Ive learned to use my EARS above all else!

I have heard 12in subs that I thought were absolutely stunning in terms of snap, immediacy, and tuneful bass!

Lab sub looks like its a winner, and probably is, but you still gotta audition them by hearing them! EARS!
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  #12  
Old 06-04-2003, 09:44 AM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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LAB Subs

Hey guys, sorry Iíve been absent from this thread, somehow Iíve been swamped with work building new places and doing shows. Iíve had the chance to spend some time with the LAB Subs during a subwoofer shootout this past winter and Iíll say itís a winner! Very good low frequency extension to about 28Hz, very efficient probably around 108 db and distortion around 1 percent. For comparison, professional front loaded cabs are typically 8 percent distortion running down to 35 Hz and horn loaded subs are a little more distortion running down to 50Hz. The LAB Subs donít really come alive until theyíre grouped in fours. Natch, I prefer my BASSMAXX subs with a little more efficiency and low extension and a little less distortion and you can buy them. They work very well grouped in two or more. The LAB Sub is truck friendly being 45 X 45 inches as is the BASSMAXX B-TWO. The LAB Sub is a box youíd build yourself and by the time youíve got it all together, you couldíve bought a BASSMAXX and then some. Personally, I donít care for the LABís custom 12's with their small (comparatively) voice coils. The BASSMAXX woofers (the NEOMAXX-18) about to hit the market are way better. Handling 3,000 plus watts program with high efficiency and very low power compression, Iím proud to say I was part of the design team. At the shootout, several amps were used. The QSC Power Light amplifiers blew away Crown as well as the mighty Crest 10001 in sound quality, output and speed. We all attributed it to itís high damping factor and better power supply. Later this year, Iím planning a subwoofer shootout here in NYC. BASSMAXX will be present and it looks like some LAB Subs will be present also. Iíd hope to finally see some BassTech 7 cabs we can compare them all to. All will be welcome as well as your bass cabinets.

Paul Bell
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2003, 07:31 PM
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Powerlight

Hello Paul.

Which QSC. PL 4's 6's or PL 9's. I'm just geting rid of PLX 3402, not very impressed.

You also forgot to mention the 'FUN' of building eight labsubs, although life is getting too short for that sort of fun!
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  #14  
Old 06-05-2003, 12:55 AM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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High efficiency

Just a question,
If you have a sub bass system [with a driver/cabnet combo] that`s efficient at 108 DB to 1 watt at 1 meter, why do you need 3000 watts? it should be able to operate on 1000 watts with ease and produce a ton of output. With one Levan horn on one channel of an amp in stereo not mono but driven in stereo with any of these following amps, Either a Crown 2400, Crest 8001, PSA 2,BGW 750G & even a micro tech 1000 the micro tech is not my fav and would be my very last choice but it will drive this horn with alot of output. On the Levan horn the output is unreal with any of the amps i just mentioned. The Levan horn is 110 db at 1 watt 1 meter and this box is only 2DB more efficient than what the specs of your box is, but you claim you need 3000 watts why so much power on a high efficiant enclosure?
The levan horn can be loaded with any of the following 2 - 18s either Eminence,Cerwin vega or jbl & any one of those drivers put a ton of audio out with any of the amps i mentioned above, I understand you can`t lug around the Levan because of size espesially since a Levan with the Bertha won`t fit thru regular doors and with weight of the levann it`s more of a perminant install type of box even thou there are guys that will use the levan on the road. (Thou if you used 2 emeralds with the levan extension it becomes a Levan horn & is very transportable this way and would solve the size/weight issues).
But back to my question, so with the power equation of 3000 watts how many drivers are you specing with this kinda power ratio are there 4 drivers in this power equation and your using 3000 watts for the 4 drivers? or is the 3000 watts to drive a pair of 18s? because your sayin this is a high efficiant subass system at 108 db to 1 watt, if this power equation is for a single pair of 18s this is not a high efficiant system and if you need 3000 watts to get some good output this is a medium to low efficiancy system. This is just a question & maybe i`m not reading your post properly are these specs for lab or Bass maxx because your speaking about 2 diff boxes in you post. I`m not tryin to bash your post but im jus curious
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  #15  
Old 06-05-2003, 07:20 AM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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It's about quality

At the sub shootout, there was Crown MA3600, Crest 10001 and QSC Power Light 9.0. Itís been discussed many times on the Live Audio Board (the professional audio/touring forum) that the 9.0 is the brute of bass. Itís damping factor of +2,000 must be part of that as well as the advanced power supply. The PL6.0 is in the same ballpark. I am curious to audition the new Lab-Grupen amplifiers, all the major touring firms are dumping their old stock of amps (Crown, Crest, QSC, whatever) for them. Imagine: 6,000 + watts in a 21 pound amp. And everybody says it sounds better than anything out there. They canít make them fast enough. Build a better mousetrap...

Transducer efficiency has nothing to do with maximum power capabilities. There are quite a few BASSMAXX cabinets seeing nightly duty at 1,000 watts each. The LAB Subs come in at about 108 db sensitivity and have handled 2,000 watts (two woofers). The BASSMAXX B-ZERO with the new woofer has about 110 db sensitivity and will handle 3,000 watts (one woofer). Do the math for maximum db output. Itís not just about volume. Itís about sound quality. Both cabinets will reproduce bass in the region that modern music goes, often below 30 Hz. Itís also about distortion, or lack of. Levels at or below 1% distortion are attained with these cabinets.

This is about speakers (and sound systems in general-electronics & mixers included) that have no ďsoundĒ of their own, no coloration, bumps at certain frequencies, boosts at others, no distortion. Properly designed and implemented, a professional sound system is flat with a minimum of cancellation and lobing. Why change the way the artist/recording engineer recorded the music? Current technology and knowledge has allowed us to see what products/designs work/don't work and understand why. Sadly, I still see systems being designed where low frequency cancellation will be at itís worst on the dance floor.

I will be posting the NYC subwoofer shootout information. Bring on your Bertha and Levan horn. Hearing is believing. Side by side comparison with the BASSMAXX or LAB Sub cabinets have shocked many staunch believers in other speakers. Understood, the specs on these cabinets are pretty unbelievable, I didnít believe what BASSMAXX cabinets could do until I compared them to some Nexo S2 cabinets in Orlando several years ago. Iím still amazed at what they do. Anyone can come and listen to the four we have at Webster Hall. They replaced eight EV MTL4 boxes (quad 18 subs) and itís louder, cleaner and now we have great sub bass. Itís stunning the impact the sound has on your body throughout the entire dance floor.

Paul Bell
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  #16  
Old 06-05-2003, 12:27 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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3000 watts to one driver

The BASSMAXX B-ZERO with the new woofer has about 110 db sensitivity and will handle 3,000 watts (one woofer). Your Quote,
Is this how much power you need to drive this paticular driver or is this power equation by choice because this is by no means a high efficiancy setup. I understand its all about sound quality and you need to have headroom but 3000 watts to a single driver.
I have never heard of a high efficiant speaker system that is high efficiant but you need 3000 WATTS to be driven, this sounds like a system that is very low efficiant.
What is the power rating on this driver 87 DB to 1 watt at one meter? I never heard of any one single voice coil that can handle the kinda electrical current & disapate that kinda heat that would be generated without burnin up that`s an incredable amount of current.
Again im not bashin your post but this doesn`t make sense because your post was about a very high efficiant speaker system and a very high efficiant system should be able to operate with alot of accoustical output with 3-500 watts.
www.systemsbyshorty.com
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  #17  
Old 06-05-2003, 01:51 PM
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daveg daveg is offline
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Powerlight

Yes they are light amps. Depends if talking intstall or portable sound though. PL9's are expensive, perhaps not context of big league,leased puchased touring rentals. I kind of hoped a amp like this might run a whole large subbbass system not a pair of drivers!

One step foward one back? Not a dig but a observation on the cutting edge technology. I've read the white papers on all these amps, all very good until the next ones come along then these will be choped in for the next fashion. I do think we are seeing some clever composite coil windings as well. I lot of that power can be disapated in heat! How much extra develops extra sound, we need a neutral witness!

I kind of think Shorty and Paul won't let go on this again!
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  #18  
Old 06-05-2003, 04:07 PM
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Lab Grupen

Need to go visit my local sound provider in the next few weeks. They have about ten racks of Lab Grupen. Replaced mostly BGW GTA. They like these new uns of course.
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2003, 05:18 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Lab Grupen

I know many sound contractors are saying good things about Lab grupen. Bruce from McCauley speakers likes them alot! I am going to get one to listen to. They are from Sweden and are supposed to be good!
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Old 06-05-2003, 07:29 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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crest 10001 vs the crown MA 3600 vs QSC 9.0

Another question about your post what kinda load and how many drivers were used for this test? because these power amps are in completly diff power catagories so to compare the QSC 9.0 vs the Crest 10001 which is rated 2ohms or lower they dont recomend using this amp with a load of 4 ohms or greater & Crowns 3600 amp. so this is not really a fair comparison kinda like comparing a M5 vs an Audi a6 vs a Mercedies E300 again im just asking questions not starting drama
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  #21  
Old 06-06-2003, 03:52 AM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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LAB Subs>>>>continued

The February subwoofer shootout (in frigid Flint, Michigan) was done with four B-ZERO cabinets loaded with the McCauley drivers. With the Crest 10001 in bridge-mono with all cabinets connected (2 Ohms) each driver was getting 2,500 watts. When the PL9.0 was swapped in, it was run in stereo, 2 cabs per channel resulting in 1,600 watts per driver. With the 9.0, it was louder, cleaner and just better. This was with a shop full of seasoned sound guys. We all agreed the QSC was clearly better. Using the Crown MA3600, the Crest was better.

This whole thing was started by questions concerning the LAB Sub. Almost as good, youíll probably make two wrong before you get it right. You canít buy them. Unless you have the shop and ability, itís not worth it because of what else is on the market. If it wasnít for BASSMAXX, Iíd probably be running the LAB Subs instead. Nothing comes close to either cabinet.

Paul Bell
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  #22  
Old 06-06-2003, 03:53 AM
pbellsound pbellsound is offline
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LAB Subs

I think youíre confusing driver sensitivity with power handling. Just because a driver can handle high power does not automatically mean it has low efficiency. The driver tests in at about 98 db, the cabinet adds about another 12 db. No, you do not have to run it at 3,000 watts, 1,000 will do. Add another cabinet for more db or save the cabinet cost/size/floorspace etc and add more power.

The BASSMAXX NEOMAXX-18 woofer was first tested in March in Houston, Texas by David Lee (principle owner of Rhino Acoustics, the company that designs and markets BASSMAXX products) and myself in the shop of Rhino Acoustics. The drivers were four ohms each. We powered each one with one channel of a QSC Power Light 9.0 in stereo, thatís 3,200 - 3,400 watts each. We emptied the amplifier for several hours often running into clip. Neither driver had any damage, confirmed by inspecting their voice coils and moving mass afterward. We even did stroboscopic viewing to confirm minimal cone flexure and mechanical clearances. Way cool to see a cone moving 2 inches at 30 Hz and watching it ďstopĒ. Talk about air movement. Due to the high efficiency of the driver in the cabinet, 110 db @ one watt, we could calculate two cabinets driven to 3,200 watts each (just below clip on this particular amplifier) would yield 143.5 db. Add one or so db for the floor, more for the wall(s) and so on. Pretty good for just two woofers. Thatís continuous output at frequencies to below 30 Hz. We did do a frequency sweep and there was a slight drop off of output starting at 27 Hz, more below 25. We would estimate this setup would best three high quality high powered dual 18 pro subs and probably equal four. You donít have to power them at this level. They still do start out at 110 db sensitivity per cabinet. As I had said, there are quite a few BASSMAXX cabinets out there running at 1,000 watts each. As for a voice coil handling this kind of power: The one installed at Lotus (using the McCauley driver) has been pounding away every night for over a year at 2,200 watts. The four in Webster Hall have seen 2,500 watts each since October, no failures so far. Loudspeaker driver technology is a mature science, engineering wise. There are wire coatings that can withstand much higher temperature than is commonly used. Ditto with adhesives. And with coil formers. Magnetic assembly designs that completely encompass the coil throughout its travel to wick away heat to finned heat sinks. U-V cured epoxies for moving mass parts. The technology is here. The NEOMAXX-18 is the first driver to incorporate all these advances. Other features are dual spiders, lead wires stitched into the spiders to reduce flexing and independent vibrations. A voice coil that never leaves the magnetic gap despite a 2+ inch stroke. Carbon fiber composite cone body and dust cap thatís ultra lightweight yet stronger than Kevlar/pulp mixtures. And all designed with one cabinet in mind: BASSMAXX. What does this all mean? A typical concert in MSG uses 24 - 30 dual 18 subs. Using BASSMAXX cabs, 16 - 20 would suffice with extended low frequency response with ultra low distortion levels. Less amps, trucking, floorspace, cabling, labor, etc. There will be drivers capable of even more power in the future. There are other drivers that have high power abilities also. The JBL dual drive neo woofers have a very large coil thermal radiating area due to having two coils. This is why their magnets have cooling fins.>>>
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  #23  
Old 08-05-2015, 07:25 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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I like my LabSubs, but I find normal reflex designs tend to sound more like I am used to. I also don't see how 2000 watts into 3 ohms per cab is safe for extended use when you look at various graphs that have been generated for them and thermal tests run on the drivers. According to Wayne Parham, going even up to 65V peak is semi-literally playing with fire. I think the X(max) works out to like the low 40s V peak, and over that is increasing the amount of distortion. X(mech) is somewhere in the 70s V peak for the first frequency to reach physical limits according to the graphs.
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