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  #26  
Old 01-07-2008, 03:02 PM
Kevin James Kevin James is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
All Bozaks have an FX loop, but it degrades the sound quality massively due to being very high impedance. If you wanted to make it work properly, you'd need to add an additional buffer. It can easily be done, but will be costly.
Note that you'll hear the sound degrading even if you just connect a cable from In-to-Out - the FX loop is the Bozak's big flaw.


Hmm.. I wasn't aware of this. This is a major concern then because I would definately need to use the FX loop in order to connect my Thrive Audio isolator.

So from what your saying if i need to use the isolator my sound will be seiousely degraded, which goes against the whole reason i would be spending extra money to get a Bozak over a Urei. maybee the Urei is the best bet for me then? I'm more confused now then before lol
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  #27  
Old 01-07-2008, 03:16 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin James
Hmm.. I wasn't aware of this. This is a major concern then because I would definately need to use the FX loop in order to connect my Thrive Audio isolator.

So from what your saying if i need to use the isolator my sound will be seiousely degraded, which goes against the whole reason i would be spending extra money to get a Bozak over a Urei. maybee the Urei is the best bet for me then? I'm more confused now then before lol


The later DLA-onwards models aren't so bad, but you still lose high-end if you use the loop.

One option is to drive the Isolator from the Bozak's main output, and your rack from the Isolator.

You could try asking the Isolator OEM if they can fit an output gain knob. Most isolators are capable of driving a higher voltage, but they are set for Unity. It would be pretty easy to adjust the feedback on the isolator and fit a passive pot on the output.

Bear in mind the irony here: The Bozak sounds good because it has such a minimal signal path (as well as good design). Because there's so little in the path, it lacks the drive to really implement an FX loop...


Justin
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  #28  
Old 01-07-2008, 04:18 PM
Kevin James Kevin James is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
The later DLA-onwards models aren't so bad, but you still lose high-end if you use the loop.

One option is to drive the Isolator from the Bozak's main output, and your rack from the Isolator.

You could try asking the Isolator OEM if they can fit an output gain knob. Most isolators are capable of driving a higher voltage, but they are set for Unity. It would be pretty easy to adjust the feedback on the isolator and fit a passive pot on the output.

Bear in mind the irony here: The Bozak sounds good because it has such a minimal signal path (as well as good design). Because there's so little in the path, it lacks the drive to really implement an FX loop...


Justin

Driving the isolator from the main output isn't an option for me. Its complicated but I'll try to explain. here goes lol....

I have my recording device patched in to the line out of my isolator so that the frequencey changes go to tape. I also run my main monitors off the booth output and my subs off the master (I like it this way and no I'm not willing to change that). Using this method you mention means if i need to turn down the volume in studio, it turns down on the recording feeds as well.

What also complicates things is that I do internet radio broadcasts which I record for archive purposes and long story short, I HAVE to turn my main out and booth out all the way down before I crack the mic to talk (the recod out of the dj mixer and a mic are patched in to a seperate mixer which feeds the broadcast and a recording device. A seperate pre mic feed goes to a second recording device so i have a recording WITH the mic talk breaks and a recording with music only) As my set up is now, that doesn't effect the recording at all. Doing as you describe would mean that when i turn down the main out to get on mic the music would be turned all the way down on the recordings of the show. Thas just not going to cut it.


so... the isolator would need to be patched in to the loop to work the way I need things to work. Kinda long explination but hopefully it makes sense.
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  #29  
Old 01-08-2008, 09:02 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Kevin - because you need so many output options, I suspect that the most practical way to get what you need will be to use a separate control preamplifier, with at least 3 individual outputs on it. If you want to drive it from the Bozak's Tape Out, you'll want a preamp with either a FET or Direct-Grid Valve / Tube input - this will give you a high-impedance input so as not to load the Bozak's Tape Out unduly.

I need to do more research on this one - it's something that bugs many of my clients. From what I understand at the moment, the problem with HF loss is coming back into the Bozak's amp card: it doesn't have FET inputs, and any additional capacitance causes filtering of top-end.

It will be interesting to see how Buzzy fixes the Tape Loop filtering issue. Isolators weren't as popular then as they are today, so I wonder if he got much call for it? The only ideas I can envisage right now are either to add additional buffers internally, or to use an external preamp with high-Z input.

Note that the DLA-onwards isn't so bad, but I still wouldn't feel comfortable using the loop...

Justin
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Last edited by thermionic : 01-08-2008 at 09:06 AM.
  #30  
Old 01-08-2008, 03:59 PM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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where's that Bozak w/eq at?

I have an LE and am pleased with it.. Stereo Montreal has a Steve Dash variant system yet they use an original 1620.. the bar at Stereo uses a E&S 100D.. the Bozak - I want one!
  #31  
Old 01-11-2008, 07:44 PM
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I like the Phazon mixer, because is rare nowdays, and thats right in that time, when there was no decent mixers this one was the option
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  #32  
Old 01-12-2008, 02:13 AM
djjonk djjonk is offline
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I forgot

I forgot that I talked to Mr. Buzzy and he told me that all the modifications that you want can be done to a Bozak mixer.
thank you,
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin James
That would be awsome. If anyone would know it would be Buzzy. Thanks John
  #33  
Old 01-12-2008, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancindave
Actually, I've got a 3 way isolator in the works right now slated for release very soon (this August via duo-audio.com). This will be fully discrete, class A circuitry with quality components. Shorty's will be out soon as well and should be a formidable unit with a some output options available.

Email John Kimura: djjohnk@sbcglobal.net or Mario: djmariog@aol.com and find out what they have available. Mario likes to use stock phono cards and original clones, whereas John will tend to use my own phono cards which have their own sound unique to the originals. UREI 1620's are always available here in the US since they were built for about 20 years and were very popular, so you should always be able to find one if you really want it.

Also, www.hticsproaudio.com has them sometimes and also www.soundbroker.com; but beware that these guys will charge you $2500+ for these units since they are selling on other peoples behalf.
why 3 channel and not 4.most dj setups use two cdjs and 2 tts
  #34  
Old 01-12-2008, 08:25 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjonk
I forgot that I talked to Mr. Buzzy and he told me that all the modifications that you want can be done to a Bozak mixer.
thank you,
John

Really? How do you propose fitting 2 Tape Out outputs? Everything else that Kevin requests is doable. You can fit 2 Tape Outs, but where is the room for the extra buffers that will be needed? If you just split the single Tape Out, the output impedance will be so high it'll cause filtering.

Did you remember to ask Buzzy how to fit 2 Tape Outs?

Please give me specifics. Either that, or show me a mixer with 2 separate Tape Outs.

Bear in mind that the Tape Out is tapped prior to the Master amps, so you have minimal circuitry driving it.

I'm calling you out on this one, John. Firstly, you cannot split the Tape Out to 2 separate outs without compromising quality massively due to doubling output impedance, which is very high anyway (it says this in the manual). Secondly, you only have one slot for extra cards (a main output card, not Tape Out).

????? Pray tell, John.


Justin
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Last edited by thermionic : 01-12-2008 at 08:29 AM.
  #35  
Old 01-14-2008, 08:07 AM
djjonk djjonk is offline
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I asked buzzy and he said it can be done.

I asked buzzy and he said it can be done. I don't ask anymore questions after that since I am no tech and I really don't care to know but I will forward what you wrote here to him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
Really? How do you propose fitting 2 Tape Out outputs? Everything else that Kevin requests is doable. You can fit 2 Tape Outs, but where is the room for the extra buffers that will be needed? If you just split the single Tape Out, the output impedance will be so high it'll cause filtering.

Did you remember to ask Buzzy how to fit 2 Tape Outs?

Please give me specifics. Either that, or show me a mixer with 2 separate Tape Outs.

Bear in mind that the Tape Out is tapped prior to the Master amps, so you have minimal circuitry driving it.

I'm calling you out on this one, John. Firstly, you cannot split the Tape Out to 2 separate outs without compromising quality massively due to doubling output impedance, which is very high anyway (it says this in the manual). Secondly, you only have one slot for extra cards (a main output card, not Tape Out).

????? Pray tell, John.


Justin
  #36  
Old 01-14-2008, 09:11 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
I will forward what you wrote here to him.

Thanks, John. I look forward to Buzzys comments.

As I said before, it can be done. The problem is doing it neatly, i.e. you only have one expansion slot. If you dont put it into the expansion slot (i.e. you keep the slot for its intended purpose, a booth out), where would you put the extra Tape Out buffer?

Secondly, how would you power and route the TO buffer? Youd have to tap the power from somewhere and run a cable. Youd then have to make up a loom to route signal.

Thirdly (least worrying), youd have to find a spot on the panel for the extra outputs.

It can be done, but its not an easy job IMHO lets see what Buzzy says.

I reiterate: on page 3 of the manual, it says in relation to the TO: It is for high-impedance use I believe the figure of 10K is optimistic for one output, let alone if you were to bridge it to 2 machines. If your Tape machine has JFET buffers, maybe, but how many recorders, digital or analogue, have high-Z inputs these days? An old tube / valve reel machine will give you a high-Z input easy get 2 1960s Ampex machines!

Id also like to hear any comments Buzzy might have regarding the Tape Loops sensitivity to cable capacitance. On my monitoring, I can hear HF rolloff if I just connect a cable from IN to OUT. True, not everyone Ive spoken to hears thisbut its there and can be heard / measured.

Justin
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  #37  
Old 01-14-2008, 09:39 AM
djjonk djjonk is offline
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here is a picture of a bozak mixer that paul and buzzy worked on.

here is a picture of a bozak mixer built by Paul and Buzzy back in 1981. Buzzy also has a spliter card that he will send me a picture of.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
Really? How do you propose fitting 2 Tape Out outputs? Everything else that Kevin requests is doable. You can fit 2 Tape Outs, but where is the room for the extra buffers that will be needed? If you just split the single Tape Out, the output impedance will be so high it'll cause filtering.

Did you remember to ask Buzzy how to fit 2 Tape Outs?

Please give me specifics. Either that, or show me a mixer with 2 separate Tape Outs.

Bear in mind that the Tape Out is tapped prior to the Master amps, so you have minimal circuitry driving it.

I'm calling you out on this one, John. Firstly, you cannot split the Tape Out to 2 separate outs without compromising quality massively due to doubling output impedance, which is very high anyway (it says this in the manual). Secondly, you only have one slot for extra cards (a main output card, not Tape Out).

????? Pray tell, John.


Justin

Last edited by djjonk : 01-14-2008 at 01:56 PM.
  #38  
Old 01-14-2008, 10:21 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjonk
here is a picture of a bozak mixer built by Paul Hammerlund and Buzzy back in 1981. Buzzy also has a spliter card that he will send me a picture of.



That's fascinating info, John - please thank Buzzy for me.

I'm intrigued to see how the Splitter card routes to the PCB and how you keep the whole caboodle neat.

It's true to say that you have put your money where your mouth is, so to speak

I reckon the splitter card could be handy even if you're just using one output (providing it's active of course). An active card will lower output impedance, which will be handy for the Insert loop, and preventing loading by any external recorders.

Justin
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  #39  
Old 01-15-2008, 08:14 AM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjonk

Have you got a shot that's in focus, John? Thanks for posting, but that doesn't show a lot.


Justin
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  #40  
Old 01-16-2008, 03:07 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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John - I'm not sure what the point is in posting such a bad quality shot?Can you post another?


Justin
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  #41  
Old 01-16-2008, 08:30 PM
djmariog djmariog is offline
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Bozak Model Cma 10-2dlbs

Here is a photo of one of my bozaks with 3 rec outs. This unit has every option possable. This was a unit from Bozak factory with every upgrade possable.

CMA 10-DLBS S= SPECIAL

NOTICE ORIG. FACTORY RIVETS ON THE REAR
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  #42  
Old 01-16-2008, 08:34 PM
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Sdx 3700

Here is a photo of a mixer i just servised.
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  #43  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:18 PM
djjonk djjonk is offline
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I'm sorry

I'm sorry, but that is an old picture that was sent to me and that is the only picture that I have. I will try to delete it. Sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
John - I'm not sure what the point is in posting such a bad quality shot?Can you post another?


Justin

Last edited by djjonk : 01-17-2008 at 05:29 AM.
  #44  
Old 01-17-2008, 10:42 AM
francois francois is offline
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test post

future dates?
  #45  
Old 01-17-2008, 11:04 AM
forumadmin forumadmin is offline
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thread is strange

posts do not show up
  #46  
Old 02-27-2010, 08:32 AM
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Re: The Phazon 3700

Quote:
Originally posted by Bozaureik
Hi,

What are your fundamented opinions about the Phazon 3700 mixer and model 5000 EQ for that mixer ?


I'd like to read several opinions, as well as mr. clubman5's and soundmanshorty's, please.


I only ask one thing: objective opinions.

Cheers


5000 EQ is Good
  #47  
Old 11-05-2010, 10:29 AM
Acidtension Acidtension is offline
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Oh, and by the way

Isn't there the possibility of a double eq module with that same high-end quality, switchable between the 6 input sources of the mixer, such as the separate isolator module that exists for the Xone V6 ?( )

Nice for taking up less space, and offering almost the same possibilities, if we'll only use 2 sources at the same time, most of the time.
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  #48  
Old 12-17-2010, 11:45 PM
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also the recent phazon installation at cocoon club in frankfurt/germany has a6h mixers in the booth, but i guess that has sponsor reasons, 'cause allen&heath is an official partner of the club.

and by looking for isolators and mixers, you can still check out what this guy is doing: http://www.electronique-spectacle.com. as living in portugal shipping costs should be affordable and you can try and test them and send the stuff back if you don't like it. i still haven't tried it by myself but hope to do so in late summer.


@dave:

at what frequencies will you isolator work? any details you can tell by now?
  #49  
Old 08-16-2011, 02:11 PM
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The HR824 would be optimum, and even the Event 20/20bas and their newer Precision models. Don't pay more than $1200 for a pair of any of them and you should be ok.

The isolator is built for a single channel because it's easier to deal with that was as a DJ and also for us as builders. It also gives more space for the DJ to freak the knobs by having them spread far on the panel. Having more options means more parts and means a more expensive unit since I don't believe in any compromises. It also means more parts in the sound path which goes against my creed.

Many of the units that John and Mario get are in decent condition. I just talked with John and he doesn't have anything right now. I know Mario will have something for you, so he will be your best bet right now.
  #50  
Old 07-17-2013, 06:44 PM
Acidtension Acidtension is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dancindave
[b]The HR824 would be optimum, and even the Event 20/20bas and their newer Precision models. Don't pay more than $1200 for a pair of any of them and you should be ok.


Were you referring to the HR624 ?
I'd more easily be able to afford those.... and they'll only be used in my room... which is not 'that big'...

Quote:
Many of the units that John and Mario get are in decent condition. I just talked with John and he doesn't have anything right now. I know Mario will have something for you, so he will be your best bet right now.

Well but, they do sell them in perfect (not just decent) condition, don't they (after working on them to get them in that great shape)?
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