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  #51  
Old 12-08-2008, 02:55 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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patents, interesting....

i hear you about destroying good components for "research purposes"...
kinda painful sometimes...


i'll go read the MIT whitepapers sometime this week...
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  #52  
Old 12-08-2008, 02:57 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistick Krewe
patents, interesting....

i hear you about destroying good components for "research purposes"...
kinda painful sometimes...


i'll go read the MIT whitepapers sometime this week...

Like to hear your opinion after you read them
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2008, 03:01 PM
pevie pevie is offline
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Just how discernible is the difference in sound using external Dacs ?
Is it similar to upgrading carts ? Or does it change the tonality of the cd deck ?
Having dabbled with a bit of reasonable hi-fi gear over the years i find once you get over a certain price point and go with well reviewed goods the diferences become more of a preference to one type of sound to another. Is this the situation with Dacs or am i missing something important here ?
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  #54  
Old 12-08-2008, 03:18 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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I think it

Quote:
Originally Posted by pevie
Just how discernible is the difference in sound using external Dacs ?
Is it similar to upgrading carts ? Or does it change the tonality of the cd deck ?
Having dabbled with a bit of reasonable hi-fi gear over the years i find once you get over a certain price point and go with well reviewed goods the diferences become more of a preference to one type of sound to another. Is this the situation with Dacs or am i missing something important here ?

is night and day difference, i will never listen to a cd again without these units.

ill put it to you this way, lets think about the cd player and all the parts internally, they fit everything in this box, They have to mass produce it, so to make money on the player they have to maximize profit with components that are cost effective to do this. So the utmost fidelity is not there objective for Audiophiles, good sound is for the comon everyday user . Cost effective build out / Feat & dependability is. So they sell alot of them to the end user cause it does 8,000,000 things. But at least they give you the Digi out for a ext DAC for us that want improvement in our listening experience which is great.

I took apart the Lavry Black to do the internal jumper mod for unbalanced mode. The DA10 is just about the same size as the cd player, and the box for the DA 10 is stuffed, and this is only for conversion process. But its not just a box with a small amount of space taken up and the rest of it empty. So there is SO much going on inside of this Lavry Black DA10.

But, its worlds apart from a cd player with out one.

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 12-08-2008 at 03:39 PM.
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  #55  
Old 12-08-2008, 03:36 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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The cd

Quote:
Originally Posted by pevie
Just how discernible is the difference in sound using external Dacs ?
Is it similar to upgrading carts ? Or does it change the tonality of the cd deck ?
Having dabbled with a bit of reasonable hi-fi gear over the years i find once you get over a certain price point and go with well reviewed goods the diferences become more of a preference to one type of sound to another. Is this the situation with Dacs or am i missing something important here ?

Player no longer has any audio passing thru it, so it has no tonality characteristic, it is now a seperate Transport/controller from your DAC, and the DAC has the audio pass thru it. So the dac has the signature sound that fits your liking.

So now it comes down to findin a DAC that has the sound you like and is in the budget you can afford which can get pricey with the more expensive units. These are about 1400.00 Ea with out the rack kit and high quality cable.
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  #56  
Old 12-08-2008, 03:36 PM
dialect dialect is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pevie
Just how discernible is the difference in sound using external Dacs ?
Is it similar to upgrading carts ? Or does it change the tonality of the cd deck ?
Having dabbled with a bit of reasonable hi-fi gear over the years i find once you get over a certain price point and go with well reviewed goods the diferences become more of a preference to one type of sound to another. Is this the situation with Dacs or am i missing something important here ?

I have a Apogee Mini Dac and the Technics CD deck. I would say it just opens up a good recording. The timing of the music is more laid back and everything sounds rounder and fuller. It's rather hard to describe, the difference is subtle but marked, once in you don't want to swop it out!
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  #57  
Old 12-08-2008, 03:38 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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this digital cable debate makes me think of those widely derided Denon 'audiophile' link cables.

computer nerds had a field day when they tried marketing these $500 network cables (which would normally cost under $10).

http://www.amazon.com/review/product...teDes cending

(the comments are hilarious, and well worth reading)
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  #58  
Old 12-08-2008, 03:43 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Yes but

Quote:
Originally Posted by dialect
I have a Apogee Mini Dac and the Technics CD deck. I would say it just opens up a good recording. The timing of the music is more laid back and everything sounds rounder and fuller. It's rather hard to describe, the difference is subtle but marked, once in you don't want to swop it out!

the bigger the system is and the high quality compnents in this system will take a small diff and blow it up larger so it will be more noticable and more dramatic. So what might be a lil bit better on some systems is huge in other applications. I toaly agree once they are in you will not swap it out

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 12-08-2008 at 06:41 PM.
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  #59  
Old 12-08-2008, 04:30 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Rather than waste my time emailing a bunch of marketing people who will either ignore my email, or throw a bunch of pseudo-science spin at me in an effort to create diversion and waste time, why not invite MIT over here? This conversation is cached in Google - I call total and utter Bullshit on cable 'burn in', and there are tens of respected engineers who support the viewpoint. Unlike MIT's engineers, these people have designed respected hardware, as opposed to overpriced cables (name me one cable designer to get an AES Fellowship? You can't...).

I find it hilarious that you use Dan Lavry's product, yet ignore the fact that he dismisses 'low-jitter cable', and indeed any type of 'audiophile' cable.
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  #60  
Old 12-08-2008, 04:41 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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I use

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic

I find it hilarious that you use Dan Lavry's product, yet ignore the fact that he dismisses 'low-jitter cable', and indeed any type of 'audiophile' cable.

What i like & hear with my own ears i feel make a improvement, no matter who endorses or dismises it, so if he dismises it maybe i should get my money bac and cancel my order on a cable i happen to like?????. I use what I like, & dont see why you have issues with it and keep repeating yourself.

I have mods done to my Supercharged Range Rover Sport, that Rover does not agree with and say that it wont make a difference, but i own my truck (Not a Lease) & do what i want with it, & i swear by Rover

If you called tech support at MIT i`m sure you can get a techinical answer to your opinion as BS product

By The way, What do you use in your home out of curiosity to listen to music?

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 12-08-2008 at 04:54 PM.
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  #61  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:03 PM
benjaminb benjaminb is offline
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i've got to say, the way that the MIT press release mixes up the characteristics and physics of audio vs digital cables doesn't give me a lot of faith in their engineers.

start putting some of their jargon into wikipedia and you'll see what i mean.
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  #62  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:03 PM
djcm djcm is offline
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Shorty,

I've listened to your system...top notch sound. I attribute that more to the drivers and cabinets than the cables used.

Think about what a speaker cable is... it's a copper conductor. Is there higher quality copper ... not so sure. The older copper...say from 60-100 years ago patinas different than the copper produced today. Some say it's because it contains less gold. So older cables may sound different than today's.

The thicker the cable the less resistance you have and the more current you can drive through it... that's about all. Will a stronger signal make your system sound "better" or just louder? And twisted pair is supposed to eliminate noise in very long runs.

Think of it as electrical cable... thicker wire allows stronger current. Not so sure you are getting better electricity with higher priced extension chords. I will agree that some cables are better made than others... but those very expensive cables don't seem to make a difference to me.
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  #63  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:05 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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MIT also sell 'audiophile' mains leads... There's just as much science in suggesting my tea will taste better if I use one on my kettle as my hi-fi... Seriously.

It's easy for you to claim these cables sound better - you've never had to back up your claims with blind listening tests.

Is James Randi crazy to offer anyone who can reliably hear any form of audiophile cable a million dollars? Randi does so because his advisors assure him that the whole audiophile cable industry is total bunkum.

I think I've probably made a convincing enough point to go back to lurking now. I only posted here because I hate the idea of total BS being cached into Google.

BTW - I use industry-standard cable such as Klotz + Van Damme. I'm not so utterly stupid as to waste money on the kind of over-priced snake oil that the likes of MIT sell.

Why not go and ask the designer of your converter, Dan Lavry as to whether he thinks MIT cables make a difference?
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Last edited by thermionic : 12-08-2008 at 05:10 PM.
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  #64  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:09 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benjaminb
i've got to say, the way that the MIT press release mixes up the characteristics and physics of audio vs digital cables doesn't give me a lot of faith in their engineers.

start putting some of their jargon into wikipedia and you'll see what i mean.

Tell you what, why not take an advert for 'anti-ageing' anti-wrinkle cream and subsitute cable jargon for the jargon they use? Would anyone be able to tell the difference? Go and look at the sites that sell anti-ageing products - there's a parallel to be seen.

I'd love MIT's salesmen to come here...
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  #65  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:39 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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I just got

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
MIT also sell 'audiophile' mains leads... There's just as much science in suggesting my tea will taste better if I use one on my kettle as my hi-fi... Seriously.

It's easy for you to claim these cables sound better - you've never had to back up your claims with blind listening tests.

Is James Randi crazy to offer anyone who can reliably hear any form of audiophile cable a million dollars? Randi does so because his advisors assure him that the whole audiophile cable industry is total bunkum.

I think I've probably made a convincing enough point to go back to lurking now. I only posted here because I hate the idea of total BS being cached into Google.

BTW - I use industry-standard cable such as Klotz + Van Damme. I'm not so utterly stupid as to waste money on the kind of over-priced snake oil that the likes of MIT sell.

Why not go and ask the designer of your converter, Dan Lavry as to whether he thinks MIT cables make a difference?

off the phone with Head of engineering, they will be calling MIT to find out more for demo cables to see what im talkin about, not sure when they will do this, but he is interested in this. He said there are differnces as well in cables and you can hear differences Esp in the analog domain, I dont work for any cable company so this is just a post on my experience with the product, and i like what i hear.

Everything in audio has an effect in the end result, yes the speakers are the biggest factor, but for a really special sound everything has to be rt so it mates and sounds a certain way that you the end user likes, Esp on a large system.
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  #66  
Old 12-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Kevin James Kevin James is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundmanshorty
Player no longer has any audio passing thru it, so it has no tonality characteristic, it is now a seperate Transport/controller from your DAC, and the DAC has the audio pass thru it. So the dac has the signature sound that fits your liking.

So now it comes down to findin a DAC that has the sound you like and is in the budget you can afford which can get pricey with the more expensive units. These are about 1400.00 Ea with out the rack kit and high quality cable.

So does that mean that the Technics player (which you prefer the sound of) would no longer have any advantage over the Pioneer CDJ 1000 (stickly speaking soundwise.)?
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  #67  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:02 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin James
So does that mean that the Technics player (which you prefer the sound of) would no longer have any advantage over the Pioneer CDJ 1000 (stickly speaking soundwise.)?


so it now comes down to features and the way it feels and operates. Which as i have posted before to me i feel like im using a turntable usin the technics which is what i want when i play music and i also feel the pitch control is better on the technics, with the pioneer im always moving it, it seems like its fighting me and drifts and its to loose.

On the install i did in Athens Greece i used the Pioneer 1000mk3 with the Benchmark dac1, and the pioneers sounded unreal in this case because of the Benchmarks. But for me, its the operation of it that i dont like with the pioneers but thats just me & i can use anything in front of me, most guys i spoke to dont like the technics, and love the pioneer.
To each his own use what you like in this case cause the quality will b amazing with the outboard dacs

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 12-08-2008 at 06:11 PM.
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  #68  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:10 PM
pevie pevie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundmanshorty
Player no longer has any audio passing thru it, so it has no tonality characteristic, it is now a seperate Transport/controller from your DAC, and the DAC has the audio pass thru it. So the dac has the signature sound that fits your liking.

So now it comes down to findin a DAC that has the sound you like and is in the budget you can afford which can get pricey with the more expensive units. These are about 1400.00 Ea with out the rack kit and high quality cable.

Thanks for all the info. Looks like a trip to the shops are in order.
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  #69  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:13 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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you like the lavry more than the benchmark, personally speaking?
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  #70  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:16 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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yes but

Quote:
Originally Posted by pevie
Thanks for all the info. Looks like a trip to the shops are in order.

Make sure you try a few, they all sound dif from 1 to the other, i been researchin this for a while to make my decision, its expensive and i like to do it once and rt the first tim.

From my convo with Lavry engineering Sony studio rebuilding there facility & using all Lavry converters, d to a & a to d for there back catalog, & new Catalog. They are using ther top of the line units, they are around 8K USD.

So i knew i picked the right DAC by the Right Designer, & MY EARS told me what was rt before i knew any of this, not anything else

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 12-08-2008 at 06:45 PM.
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  #71  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:32 PM
soundmanshorty soundmanshorty is offline
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Yes much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistick Krewe
you like the lavry more than the benchmark, personally speaking?


Better, it jus sounds better to me in so many ways. It has the rt sound, and from what im told the DAC1 is 2002 technology.

The sound of the DA10 is rt in every way, i looked for some negative issues i might not like and could not find any with the way it sounds.

The DA10 unit has a crazy power supply, and you can drive this units gain hard and it dont clip, i noticed that on the dac1 in Greece, when you drive it a bit hard it sounds edgy in the mid and top end, so you have to be aware of this, but not the case with the DA10,

the detent level controls for instant recall, another +, so if its moved you set it back and its rt where you want it and has memory when you power back up it has recall. With a pot if its a hair off and it never sounds like its bac where it was. or if you move it rt back where you had it before it was moved, you still think its off lol.

Then the user adjustable clock modes to choose what you like, i love the polarity switch for recordings you need to change the polarity on, the mono stereo switch, the others dont have any of this, this i love.

They say from talkin to them @ Lavry, i should leave them on 24hrs cause it does take aprox 10 min to settle in, and you will hear this

The only down fall is the lack of rca outs, but no big deal i jus moved the jumpers & use the Female xlr to rca adapters, and you dont sacrafice any sound with the adapter

so i would say its my fav

Last edited by soundmanshorty : 12-08-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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  #72  
Old 12-08-2008, 06:43 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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yeah, i had read the benchmark DAC1 had been around for quite a bit longer than lavry...

here's a "deathmatch" i found between the units, courtesy of the way back machine.....


page 1
http://web.archive.org/web/200710152...6611090261/p/1

page 2
http://web.archive.org/web/200705200...6611090261/p/2

page 3
http://web.archive.org/web/200711051...6611090261/p/3

Last edited by Mistick Krewe : 12-08-2008 at 07:06 PM. Reason: links links links
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  #73  
Old 12-08-2008, 07:11 PM
Kevin James Kevin James is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundmanshorty
so it now comes down to features and the way it feels and operates. Which as i have posted before to me i feel like im using a turntable usin the technics which is what i want when i play music and i also feel the pitch control is better on the technics, with the pioneer im always moving it, it seems like its fighting me and drifts and its to loose.

On the install i did in Athens Greece i used the Pioneer 1000mk3 with the Benchmark dac1, and the pioneers sounded unreal in this case because of the Benchmarks. But for me, its the operation of it that i dont like with the pioneers but thats just me & i can use anything in front of me, most guys i spoke to dont like the technics, and love the pioneer.
To each his own use what you like in this case cause the quality will b amazing with the outboard dacs

I hear ya. We all have our preferences.

I guess I prefer the CDJ 1000's to everything else mainly because it has a wave display which I think EVERY dj cd player should have. You can see where the breakdowns or quiter parts in a track are this way. If you were playing records you would be able to see where the breakdowns or quieter parts of the track were by looking at the lighter parts in the grooves. I find this especially helpfull with alot of the soulful vocal tracks... for some reason alot of them seem to have breakdowns within the first and last 2 minutes of the track which I HATE.

Speaking of that.. Note to producers.... DO NOT PUT BREAKDOWNS IN THE FIRST AND LAST 1-1.5 MINUTES OF A TRACK!!!!!! tHIS IS EXACTLY WHERE YOU WOULD BE BLENDING AND IT MAKES YOUR BLEND SOUND LIKE SHIT.

sorry.. had to get that off my chest.. end of rant lol
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Last edited by Kevin James : 12-08-2008 at 07:18 PM.
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  #74  
Old 12-08-2008, 07:15 PM
jnkarrik jnkarrik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djcm
The thicker the cable the less resistance you have and the more current you can drive through it... that's about all. Will a stronger signal make your system sound "better" or just louder? And twisted pair is supposed to eliminate noise in very long runs.

Think of it as electrical cable... thicker wire allows stronger current. Not so sure you are getting better electricity with higher priced extension chords. I will agree that some cables are better made than others... but those very expensive cables don't seem to make a difference to me.

Yes, but you are not pusing straight DC through a speaker cable - its a signal that is constantly changing in frequency and voltage, so the inductance of the wire can have an effect on transients.

From Wikipedia: Inductance (L) (measured in henries) is an effect, resulting from the magnetic field that forms around a current-carrying conductor that tends to resist changes in the current.

I'm no believer in the uber high priced "snake oil" cables, but up to a practical point, I believe there are some advantages to be gained by spending a little in this area. I have a pair of bi-Amp Synergistic Research No. 2's connected to my Soliloquy 6.3 towers, and absolutely love them. I've never done a blind A/B test, but even if the cables didn't sound any better than 14 gauge wire from the hardware store, they sure as hell do look a lot sexier.

But weren't we talking about DAC's? This is an interesting post Shorty. Thanks for sharing your opinions, and I look forward to your updates.
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  #75  
Old 12-08-2008, 07:21 PM
Reticuli Reticuli is offline
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Does Randi's offer include "any" audiophile cable? Because I was in a blind test run by Thiele Loudspeakers at CES a few years ago and was the only one in the room who could repeatedly and reliably answer correctly when the cable was switched. That wasn't just any cable, though. The special dielectric jacket was electrically charged by a power supply the size of a shoebox...one for each cable. And the cables were like an inch thick. Experimental stuff. Even going from rubber to Teflon, though, will make a subtle difference. There's an electrical reason why audiology companies like it for hearing test equipment cabling.

One thing you have to remember is the methodology for blind tests in audio. You have to do them in pairs. It’s whether the first or the second is the “special” cable that is not known by the listeners. You don’t do a dozen random samples and maybe three of them just so happen to be the special cable and the others aren’t. You do 1a/1b. 2a/2b. 3a/3b. 4a/4b. 5a/5b, etc. And it might be Special/Normal, Normal/Special, Normal/Special, Normal/Special, Special/Normal. Of course, the listener is "blind" to which is which, but they have a real chance. A person needs to be given the chance to compare two together, and you can’t trick them by doing Normal/Normal. In the case of the Thiele test, I actually managed to beat that trick, too, but that’s not proper audio testing practice. You have to allow people the opportunity to hear subtle differences, and most methods are sorely self-defeating. This is a cognitive/perceptual test, not a drug test.

As far as Technics v. Pioneer v. Denon v. Vestax v. Numark CD DJ decks connected to an external DAC... They all use different internal DSPs. Each DSP has a different sound. They are not simply changing the sampling rate of the original file and feeding though a SPDIF or DAC that has a fixed sampling rate…which theoretically is possible to achieve linear pitch/speed change if buffer size in not an issue. None I've seen do that, though, and each is processing the signal differently internally. The only DJ decks I know of that are capable of bit perfect are the old Numarks with SPDIF that only functions when the DSP is turned off, which shuts off effects & pitch control. In that mode, it only buffers for anti-skip & anti-jitter reclocking like a second or two uncompressed and results in a lag, since it can't do a pre-buffer for instant start. You can test it with an HDCD disk out to an HDCD-capable DAC. Some of the other brands that turned off their DSPs for Karaoke-enhanced text tags might also do that. But as soon as any pitch bending, compression, anti-skip, or effects are being done, you can’t do it bit perfect and they are all processing the PCM before the digital out. And this doesn’t even get into the issue of Key Correction, which if you care about sound you ought to leave off.

So the DSP is just as important as the DAC in use when you're dealing with DJ CD decks. I also recommend you guys try connecting any DJ CD deck to a digital mixer like the Pioneer 800/1000 or Numark/Alesis PPD9000 using SPDIF and then the mixer out to a DAC of your choice. You'll never want to use an analog mixer when spinning digital sources again. And you might not find vinyl through them to be so objectionable as you thought they’d be. Just try and get a variety of external phono stages to try. You don’t want to be tethered to one dual-opamp phono design of the mixer and judge its vinyl sound based on that alone.

Last edited by Reticuli : 12-08-2008 at 07:39 PM.
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