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  #126  
Old 12-11-2008, 01:44 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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This is too funny.

Why is it that certain members can't keep to the debate at hand, without resorting to ad-hominem attacks? I wonder why... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I wonder how people would respond to Shorty if no one knew who he was… Would he be credited as a great luminary? Why not read his posts as if he were just another member? The Internet can be a great leveller…illustrative of how salesmanship *can* triumph over knowledge…

FWIW, seeing as this group is obsessed with star-fucking: I don't come to this group (at Wavemusic’s expense…) to drum up business, nor am I insecure enough to invoke the names of clients to win an argument on the Internet - why not keep to the subject at hand? I post here purely to put forward a counterpoint to mindless voodoo – and help out occasionally.

BTW - When did you last see Shorty give someone helpful advice here? I see many posts telling us how great his company is... Where are the help posts that answer queries?

If you support the cable argument, it's because either you don't understand any basic audio theory, or placebo. Simple as that. People don't like to think the item that cost them hundreds of dollars is purely a 'faith-based' thing.

James Randi has a 1-million dollar prize awaiting. It's funny that he doesn't offer this prize for people who can hear amplifiers isn't it?

To anyone that thinks 'audiophile' cables make a difference: show me the blind test data. You can't...

I didn’t come here for over a year; now I remember why… See ya!
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  #127  
Old 12-11-2008, 01:50 PM
Mistick Krewe Mistick Krewe is offline
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be well Justin,
and enjoy whhatever endeavours you
decide to pursue in the meantime...

I don't want to speak for everyone here,
but your posts are always appreciated by
me at least (and i suspect quite a few others also)

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  #128  
Old 12-11-2008, 01:51 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin James
My God is this thread getting boring. You two just keep droning on and on and on lol

Thermionic, you have made it ubundantly clear you think Shorty is full of shit and doesn't know what he's talking about. You may or may not but right. But since you are so convinced he doesn't know what he's talking about and that you clearly know more about sound, I have a simple challenge for you.

Why don't you design and install a club system somewhere, (clearly you know your shit so getting a club to hire you for an install should be no problem lol) and see how many club system of the year nominations you get. Shorty has gotten nominated for different systems multiple times in the last few years. If you know better then him you certainly should be able to get at least one too.

So, if he's so full of shit and you know more then him, how bout it?

I call bullshit on the "awards" shorty has received. I call bullshit on club system international. Despite profiling systems from martin and funktion one, the magazine has besides ministry (a martin install) never featured any european club. Not fabric. Nothing from ibiza. Not cocoon, not berghain, nothing. Flex (they built massive sub horns into the building) ? Nope. Rex club? It's only been there forever, but no. The european club scene is fucking huge and basically ignored, regardless if products designed and built here are used in american clubs.

Considering the magazine's editor wrote this (and on this forum):

Quote:
CSI doesn't really "review" club systems, we "profile" them.

When I write about a certain club, I prefer to focus on the installer(s), the design goals, any special considerations, the products involved, and the installation process. Of course, everyone involved in a given project is always "delighted" with the end result:

The interior is a masterpiece of design, combining classic elements with bold flourishes and whimsical details. The sound system is quite impressive, with clearly-defined highs, rich mids, and body-rockin’ bass (although one can still carry on a conversation in the middle of the dance floor due to the exotic speaker components). The lighting system is state-of-the-art, and the programming is superb.

Fortunately, CSI readers know how to read between the lines, and they can draw some very accurate conclusions by examining equipment lists and weighing the reputations and track records of the people responsible for different installations.

They completely ignore a large portion of the installer market. Nothing on GSA? Nothing on Dash? Not to say these guys install systems better or worse than shorty, but are their jobs not the slightest bit more interesting than some of the places featured, such as some whatever club in pittsburgh or reno?

Perhaps club world magazine is different, but they do not have any online features. The site indicates the magazine is free, but I doubt they will send copies to europe. free magazines only exist with paid advertising. Hmm, how impartial could a publication remain when it has to rely on a select group of advertisers? I am not suggesting that any of the clubs featured have paid to be included in the magazine, but that PR is a dirty game. it is simply kind of odd that the global polls of what the top clubs around the world are supposed to be do not line up with CSI at all.


It is really silly to question someone's audio engineering credibility over whether he installs club systems. It is such a silly market to start with. There are politics to play which have nothing to do with sound quality. The reviewing of systems is just as bad as how some of them sound. Live audio is more demanding and pays better, so it sucks away plenty of brainpower, too. i bet dave rat has never installed a club system, but he regularly mixes for 80,000 people on complicated system he has designed. A university professor might have never worked in industry, yet might still hold patents or even a nobel prize.

Either shorty is right on this, or thermionic is.
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  #129  
Old 12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
thermionic thermionic is offline
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Quote:
Either shorty is right on this, or thermionic is.

Haven't you studied parallel universes? Maybe my pet giraffe is right.

edit - having said that, it would mean that the laws of physics would be different from one to the next. I'm not sure how well that would sit with Stephen Hawking.
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  #130  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:00 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic
Haven't you studied parallel universes? Maybe my pet giraffe is right.

edit - having said that, it would mean that the laws of physics would be different from one to the next. I'm not sure how well that would sit with Stephen Hawking.


I can't say that i've studied them, but i sure have *observed* them, lol. While i once could swear i had devolved into an electron, audio voodoo never had any effect.
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  #131  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:02 PM
Kevin James Kevin James is offline
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LOL figures you would ignore that challenge.

The bottom line is this. You disagree with what he has to say, great. Thats yoru right and you've made your oppinion quite clear. No problem there. You take things farther then needed though, you call him a "snake oil salesman" and attack his credibility. He makes his living off of night club sound installations, and judging by the many times he's been nominated for best club system of the year he's pretty damn good at it. I think one of the major reasons for that is he lets his ears tell him what works and what makes a difference vs what doesn't, not specs on paper.

You know, there were plenty of peopel that said Richard Long did alot of things that were incorrect, and wouldn't work. He too ignored that and whent by what his ears told him. The man has been dead and gone for over 22 years and yet he is still talked about and respected as nightclub sound industries #1 guy.
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  #132  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:17 PM
djcm djcm is offline
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I still think the most important tools to any sound engineer are his ears. You can have correctly engineered gear set up in a room and have it sound correct. But a sound engineer can come in and make it sound beautiful by using his ears. That's just my opinion though.

I guess one could argue that an engineer can use math to do the same...spl, square footage, etc. But I still think the ears can tweak it beyond the calculations.
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  #133  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:21 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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Everyone and anyone is entitiled to his opinion, however when it comes across as personal and insulting, it gets out of hand. As we all know alot of people hide behind internet chat. They make statements about people they never met or even talked to via telephone. This is where the problem comes in. Now things are out of control, where people who are out there working with audio and having fun with it do not even look at this site any longer.
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  #134  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:21 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin James
LOL figures you would ignore that challenge.

The bottom line is this. You disagree with what he has to say, great. Thats yoru right and you've made your oppinion quite clear. No problem there. You take things farther then needed though, you call him a "snake oil salesman" and attack his credibility. He makes his living off of night club sound installations, and judging by the many times he's been nominated for best club system of the year he's pretty damn good at it. I think one of the major reasons for that is he lets his ears tell him what works and what makes a difference vs what doesn't, not specs on paper.

You know, there were plenty of peopel that said Richard Long did alot of things that were incorrect, and wouldn't work. He too ignored that and whent by what his ears told him. The man has been dead and gone for over 22 years and yet he is still talked about and respected as nightclub sound industries #1 guy.

Okay, who told Long that what he was doing was incorrect? Respected industry people such as Dave Martin, Tom Danley, and some of the EAW guys obviously did not. If you can't list any names, then you are just talking bullshit.

Shorty is nominated by a dubious source. What is the credibility behind CSI?

Where is Shorty's big room install in NYC, his home scene?
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  #135  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:25 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djcm
I still think the most important tools to any sound engineer are his ears. You can have correctly engineered gear set up in a room and have it sound correct. But a sound engineer can come in and make it sound beautiful by using his ears. That's just my opinion though.

I guess one could argue that an engineer can use math to do the same...spl, square footage, etc. But I still think the ears can tweak it beyond the calculations.

however, you can still measure what one heard with his ears.
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  #136  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:26 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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In 1977 an article in a Magazine called Discothekin once described Richard Long as crazy, against heavy odss, meanwhile the same magazine stated Rosner was the MAN. In the same magazine same edtion they stated Studio 54 and New York, New York had two of the best sound systems in New York, guess who did the systems for those two clubs.
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  #137  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:28 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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But, Kevin, WHAT would Richard be into IF he were still alive today?

I cannot answer this, nor can u, BUT I bet if Richard was here, there would be something new, or whatever, that he liked?

My take is that people have to and are going to do what THEY WANT TO DO. If one uses so called special interconnects, and feels they hear a positive improvement, let him have his feelings, its a free country.

Thermionic is also entitled to his opinions, and he is quite the intelligent person.

This being the reason I even jumped into this thread at all. I just didn't want to see this turn into a name calling pissing contest, as it seemed was beginning to happen, and somehow always does.

Don't put either party down, use the information, hey, maybe even buy something on your own, and see what it is YOU like!

Opinion on sound, does it make a difference, doesn't make a difference, well, this will always vary among people.
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  #138  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:28 PM
charles0322 charles0322 is offline
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You'll need your ears, your brain and all the math you can handle. If you want a club to be all about sound it'll take some calculations and none more important than the calculations your brain is doing while processing the information from your ears.

But as it is for steaks, we all like different things.. That is why the science of sound is such a cool thing and different to every individual.

When you research & tailor your system, tweak it, bring in new things and hear the differences first hand. Sharing those advancements with others is what this forum is all about to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by djcm
I guess one could argue that an engineer can use math to do the same...spl, square footage, etc. But I still think the ears can tweak it beyond the calculations.
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  #139  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:32 PM
djcm djcm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by der geile ami
however, you can still measure what one heard with his ears.


Very true. But the measurements are more useful after the fact the engineer has used his ears to adjust the sound.
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  #140  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:35 PM
der geile ami der geile ami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardcampbell
Everyone and anyone is entitiled to his opinion, however when it comes across as personal and insulting, it gets out of hand. As we all know alot of people hide behind internet chat. They make statements about people they never met or even talked to via telephone. This is where the problem comes in. Now things are out of control, where people who are out there working with audio and having fun with it do not even look at this site any longer.


is it okay to call out outlandish marketing claims, or is that not fun and therefore unacceptable?

This is sound engineering, and while there is perhaps some art involved, if every opinion was valid, we would not have any standards. If I said you could point the speakers out a window and that the sound would magically bend around the building, come in through the front door with the guests, and then sound amazing on the dancefloor, just because it is an opinion does not mean it should be taken seriously unless I could prove it. I'm sorry, but simply saying one heard something on an internet forum is not enough. What is the difference than to say one saw aliens fucking a cow in times square without at least a picture?
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  #141  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:37 PM
Kevin James Kevin James is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by der geile ami
Okay, who told Long that what he was doing was incorrect? Respected industry people such as Dave Martin, Tom Danley, and some of the EAW guys obviously did not. If you can't list any names, then you are just talking bullshit.

Shorty is nominated by a dubious source. What is the credibility behind CSI?

Where is Shorty's big room install in NYC, his home scene?

You are missing my point by miles. Oh, and by the way, I don't now nor have I ever claimed to be an expert. I am still learning, and if that means I'm talking bullshit to you thats fine. It doesn't really matter.

The point was he expressed an oppinion which is fine, but to insult someone and attack them is uncalled for. What cracks me up is that he got totally insulted when he was called on it and doesn't want to come here anymore. Take your ball and go home eh?
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Last edited by Kevin James : 12-11-2008 at 02:41 PM.
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  #142  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:43 PM
djcm djcm is offline
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Just because it hasn't been proven yet doesn't make it not true. There was a time when people thought the sun revolved around the Earth and Copernicus and Galileo were persecuted for what they believed. They later went on to prove what they were saying with scientific fact. Maybe someday someone will prove a theory in electronic/electrical engineering that hasn't been proven to this day.
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  #143  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:49 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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The problem on here is exactly what Kevin is stating, things have gotten out of control. I really don't care what anyone, I do what I do and I enjoy it. So measure this and measure that is up to the individual. My father was a elctronics/electrical engineer for Fisher and Sperry Electronics and in the 70's he told me 15" woofers cannot be used as mid range, SO GO FIGURE. There is a famous saying, don't knock until you try. Everyday we all learn something knew.
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  #144  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:50 PM
mark andrews mark andrews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin James
What cracks me up is that he got totally insulted when he was called on it and doesn't want to come here anymore. Take your ball and go home eh?

That cracks me up Kevin, especially when no one even knows who thermionic is and how do you know what he has or hasn't been involved with. like he said he has only ever tried to help people out and never been here to push a product.

I've read a lot of thermionic's posts and have learned lots doing so, The only thing I've ever learned from reading Shorty's posts is what he sells, what he has just brought and that he drives a Super Charged Range Rover Sport
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  #145  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:57 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Originally Posted by der geile ami
Okay, who told Long that what he was doing was incorrect?
Randy, back in 1978, MANY audio sales people, engineers, and other designers said Richard's products, and ideas were INCORRECT! One thing many disagreed with were his folded horns, they didn't get down that low, and that exaggerated BOOM was NOT what music sounds like is, what they said of them. Then, the bullet tweeters! Raspy, beamy, and inadequate bandwidth, and RLA used these to produce a sound, rather than reproduce sound.

Even someone at JBL that used to converse with Richard regularly, names shall not be mentioned said TO me, of the modifications to the Urei 525 that RLA did, WHY DO YOU WANT THAT? ITS ALL DISTORTION!

FFWD to TODAY, and Horn loaded speakers and cabinets returned with a vengeance! Yet, it wasn't so long ago, as in 1992, that ALL the audio companies swore direct radiating cabinets were superior, in sound, dispersion, etc! And, the horn loaded speaker types left, for a period of time, and returned heavily. Even exotic, HIGH PRICED consumer Hi Fi horn speakers are available for home use today, once again!
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  #146  
Old 12-11-2008, 02:58 PM
djcm djcm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark andrews

I've read a lot of thermionic's posts and have learned lots doing so


I have done the same... thermionic seems very well learned in the matters he discusses.
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  #147  
Old 12-11-2008, 03:01 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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All this started because one person bought two units to improve on something and everyone goes crazy.This really says alot about this industry. Someone in this industry on this site once stated to me that there is alot of backstabbing in this industry. THE WERE RIGHT ON POINT.
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  #148  
Old 12-11-2008, 03:02 PM
edwardcampbell edwardcampbell is offline
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I did not know we were studying for our PHD's in DISCO SYSTEMS
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  #149  
Old 12-11-2008, 03:13 PM
clubman5 clubman5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin James
You are missing my point by miles. Oh, and by the way, I don't now nor have I ever claimed to be an expert. I am still learning, and if that means I'm talking bullshit to you thats fine. It doesn't really matter.

The point was he expressed an oppinion which is fine, but to insult someone and attack them is uncalled for. What cracks me up is that he got totally insulted when he was called on it and doesn't want to come here anymore. Take your ball and go home eh?
Again, if WE want to OVER ANALYZE things, we can find fault, weak arguments, strong points, valid and invalid claims, ON BOTH sides of the coin.

I say, " Take what you want, and LEAVE the rest ".

However, "I" know what I like, and how to get there, too! I would bet money that both Shorty and Justin KNOW what they like and "HOW" to reach their desired outcome, as well!

But, then there are others, guys like you, who know they HEARD something, just not exactly what or why. So, arguing with a guy like justin, well, you never know when someone like him, clues you into something you didn't know, that works really well. For sure, Justin is a technical ace, he can read a circuit, design a circuit, repair, or upgrade an existing circuit.

Then, we have guys like Shorty, that work to create their own sonic signature, some of what this type of individual says and does is taken to heart, and some of it gets challenged, and confronted, as being voodoo.

So, sort of an art -vs- science thing. But, I say we need both, part art, part science!

They are both big boys, and both good at what they do, and I like reading the Art -vs- Science debates.


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  #150  
Old 12-11-2008, 03:17 PM
darrylfunk darrylfunk is offline
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well thermonic is a very experienced engineer and shorty sells expensive audio gear.

so what.

the problem is shorty wants to sell you his ideas/products and justin does not.

again so what.

but justin is saying shorty is mis guided on the cable argument whereas shorty can now do a spiel and sell his installs very expensive cable looms cos his fanboys take what he says as proof of superiority.

so what.

i don't care both guys are nice fellas but shorty is not an audio guru just deal with it.

for the record shorty was telling us that older wire was better than new wire only a few months ago , i guess he is selling the dream now and good luck to him.

i think its bull crap myself.

its another reason why i only look in sometimes now , its too much guru this and legend that , rla would be doing audio different now if he was alive so get with it.
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